This Chain started with a considered view that Motive behind building a temple or writing a Mahakavya (epic) matters a lot and has effect on its future course. Then it went from Motive to Karma to Prayojan ending with Agreeculture via Cash or Trash
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K.Natarajan wrote:
Epics and temples are the grassroots of our civilization, rather the very way of living!
So unique to us and not found anywhere in the world (except a few neighboring countries with geographical connectivity!)
Temples were built in this great religious country, like the epics of Ramayana and Mahabharata, to perpetuate the god feeling in man. Great rulers considered it as a religious duty to build temples with the tax money collected from the subjects.
The epics were written with a spirit of selfless Bhakthi, to the glory of heroes, considered as avatars of God.
We read a beautiful story of self-effacing Bhakthi of Hanuman and the Bhakthi tinged (imaginative story, of course) with exhibition of great literary gnan of the poet Valmiki. (posting by Vaghasia Ji and given below)
There is a similar story of Vyasa, poet author of Mahabharata.
It is said that Vyasa did not find the peace of contentment, even after satisfactory completion of the great epic.
Narada appeared before the desolate Vyasa and told him the reason .
Vyasa's emphasis was on the poetic situations of humans, though avatars of God. Now take up writing of gods, as the stories of gods, poetry pushed to the sides, and that is how the Puranas were born.
Idhihasas and Puranas, as embodiment of poetry and piety?!
Two of the greatest temples in Tamilnadu, the land of temples, come to the mind, that of Bragadeeswarar koil (temple), also known as Raja rajeswar koil, at Thanjavur and Meenakshi Amman koil at Madurai.
Both are more than thousand years old.
The former gradually became less visited by devotees and had to be reactivated by projected sanctity on certain auspicious days etc. Today it is more a tourist spot of great architectural antiquity than a place of religious worship.
The appeal of the later spontaneously grew, earning the name of temple town to Madurai, with millions of people visiting the temple.
The reason is not far to find.
King Rajaraja cholan built the temple as a mark of personal glory, even naming the temple after him.
The Madurai temple was built by Nayakkar kings, to protect the people of the town, even naming the God as the first ruler, without even knowing who built the temple.
Selfless devotion is the automatic way to everlasting merit!
My views without any authority, purely looked as social issues, with no intention to discuss religious faiths.
With warm regards, malice to none!,
Ps
Since Wikipedia has become our literature, I am giving the Wikipedia meaning to piety to save you the trouble!
"In spiritual terminology, piety is a virtue that may include religious devotion, spirituality, or a mixture of both. A common element in most conceptions of piety is humility and religiosity."
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Post by R.S.Vaghasiya on Hanuman and Valmiki:
When Valmiki completed his Ramayana, Narada wasn't impressed.
'It is good, but Hanuman's is better', he said.
'That monkey has written the Ramayana too!'
Valmiki didn't like this at all, and wondered whose Ramayana was better.
So he set out to find Hanuman.
In Kadali-vana, grove of plantains, he found Ramayana inscribed on seven broad leaves of a banana tree.
He read it and found it to be perfect. The most exquisite choice of grammar, vocabulary & melody. He couldn't help himself. He started to cry.
'Is it so bad?' asked Hanuman
'No, it is so good', said Valmiki
'Then why are you crying?' asked Hanuman
'Because after reading your Ramayana no one will read my Ramayana,' replied Valmiki
Hearing this Hanuman simply tore up the seven banana leaves stating " Now no one will ever read Hanuman's Ramayana.'"
Hanuman said, 'You need your Ramayana more than I need mine. You wrote your Ramayana so that the world remembers Valmiki; I wrote my Ramayana so that I remember Ram.'
At that moment he realized how he had been consumed by the desire for validation through his work.
He had not used the work to liberate himself from the fear of invalidation. He had not appreciated the essence of Ram's tale to unknot his mind.
His Ramayana was a product of ambition; but Hanuman's Ramayana was a product of affection.
That's why Hanuman's Ramayana sounded so much better. Valmiki realized that greater than Ram..... is the idea of Ram!!!! ( राम से बड़ा राम का नाम ).
This story tell us that.... There are people like Hanuman who don't want to be famous. They just do their jobs and fulfill their purpose.
So let us not be like Valmiki, thinking our ''Ramayana" is the best.
There are many unsung "Hanumans" too!!!
"Jai Bolo Ramachandra Maharaj Ki Jai"
Written by Gopal Parameshwar
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Ashok Malhotra :
Appreciate your following observations n comments on the topic:
Quote "King Rajaraja cholan built the temple Bragadeeswara as a mark of personal glory, even naming the temple after him.
The Madurai temple was built by nayakkar kings, to protect the people of the town, even naming the God as the first ruler, without even knowing who built the temple.
Selfless devotion is the automatic way to everlasting merit!"
But I was a bit confused by use of two words 1. Civilization 2. Piety
Though you took pains to explain Piety as spirituality or devotion (Wiki..), my understanding, based on the depiction by the world famous sculpture Michelangelo's "Pieta", showing mother Mary holding the dead body of Jesus was more in terms of compassion or mourning, but we learn on.
Re Civilization, I think you meant Culture, which is better connected to religion.
But perhaps, I may not have properly gauged your motives.
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K.Natarajan replied:
Malhotra Ji,
Not 1. Civilization and 2. Piety, but
Poetry and Piety!
I do not know how poetry was replaced by civilization in your PC! Some type of autonomous PC?!
Poetry refers to the epics and piety refers to the Puranas, and I thought the two rhyme well and later the note on piety!
Motives, again, refer to that of the two kings, one concerned with self and the second with God, not MY motives!
With so much of deterministic material points under discussion, a bit of metaphysical things tent to become stochastic!
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Anand Ghare (Myself):
Can we draw any conclusion from just two examples?
It will be interesting to know who built Thirupathi Thirumalai temples, the most rich and famous of all, Sabarimala temple, Jagannathpuri temple etc. Mahalakshmi temple at Kolhapur and Triambakeshwara temple near Nasik are also some centuries old and beautiful temples fully built with carved stones. They are almost as much crowded by the devotees as Rajaraja and Meenakshee temples, if not more. Actually my personal impression (perhaps wrong) when I visited these latter temples was that they are more of tourist attractions. Vitthala temple at Pandharpur may not be grand but attracts millions of devotees. In spite of being a Maharashtrian and having visited all these temples I never came to know who built them.
Perhaps I am strengthening Shri Natarajan's theory. Piety might have more lasting effect than generosity of the kings from their state treasury. Motive matters. But did Rajaraja have a motive of becoming immortal as the builder of Brihadeeshwara Temple? On the other side did all the temples built by devoted Bhaktas last long? Mahabalipuram temples may be oldest of them all and have withstood the ravages of sea waves including tsunami, but hardly anybody goes there with the motive of worshiping the deity!
A bit confusing or may be of random nature!
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K.Natarajan:
Dear Ghare ji, MohanRao ji, friends,
Time was when I repeatedly used to cajole members to write on anything, apart from our 'mundane' matters of concern..
Now-a-days, there is an INFORMATION EXPLOSION. The rapidity of heavy topics is bunumbing and , maybe, we do not read well.
Take a quote from your mail
"They are almost as much crowded by the devotees as Rajaraja and Meenakshee temples, if not more. Actually my personal impression (perhaps wrong) when I visited these latter temples was that they are more of tourist attractions.", whereas the point of my mail was that devotees throng Madurai temple, but Thanjavure temple has become more of archeological interest tourist spot, to demonstrate 'motive matters'.
You are right about mahabalipuram and the other famous temples, the former built by the famous Pallava King, Narasimha pallavar, purely of his love of art and more for self glory, the other temples having only godliness as the core, resulting in what you said.
No confusion on Motive matters, even in a grand project of building a temple.
The story posted by Vaghasia ji (attached to my mail), is impressive with a message, and I was only balancing Valmiki with a similar predicament of Vyasa, adding an illustrative example of the two temples with two different motives.
Anyway, if this provides some respite from the heavy cartechnomics, so much the better!
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Ashok Malhotra wrote:
When in any kind of a jam, the last n the only practical option: Repeating the words, "agree culture", n not passing the blame on to the motiveless Jeeves, "the PC".
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K.Natarajan :
I agree culture
Dear Ashok ji,
Your reference to Iagree culture starting from bottom moving up for favors triggered a pleasant memory of a benevolent downward movement of the same., just nostalgia , no bearing on what we are talking about.
A personal joke/ experience of great value in my formative years.
During early 60s, with very acute accommodation problem in Bombay and my meager salary, a three room flat at DAE Chembur quarters came for allotment, for which I was not eligible. I made a proposal that I
I would share that with another friend, also in acute need, and two would benefit in the lower cadre. My boss would not agree with any such deviations. I pleaded with him to just forward and give me a chance to go, see the super boss, Dr.AS Rao (Ayyagiri Sambasiva Rao). I did get the chance to meet the august personality and talk to him. He just scribbled on the margin of my note, I agree, and signed. I did not realise the pun of his name at that time.
That humane gesture at that critical time went a long way to my comfortable start in Bombay
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Ashok Malhotra
Ayyagiri ( I agree ) Sh Natarajan garu. Thanks n regards.
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Shah Nawaz Ahmad :
As our beloved Ysr Prasad saheb used to say ATTITUDE!
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Ashok Malhotra
I was just wondering what's the difference between "कर्मा n motive". Or we are having a repeat of our beloved topic in another Awaatar?
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Ganesh Johorey :
Motive is precursor to karma
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From: Rustagi
Dear Shri Johoreyji and Ashokji
What I have understood is this - Karma is performed through thought, spoken word, or a bodily act - मनसा, वाचा, कर्मसा.
I would agree with Johoreyji, that Motive or प्रयोजन is a precursor to Karma.
Likewise Attitude or भाव is also a precursor, as pointed out by Shri Ahmad.
You may have heard the following, perhaps from Gandhiji-
Watch your thoughts, as they become words
Watch your words, as they become actions
Watch your actions, as they become habits
Watch your habits, as they become beliefs
This chain can be further extended-
Watch your beliefs, as they become 'pseudo-truths'
Watch the 'pseudo-truths', as they influence your words, and ultimately become your destiny.
Shri Malhotraji, Karma is an unending mystery topic.
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Shah Nawaz Ahmad :
The saying you quote Rustagiji is attributed to Prophet Muhammad
And all great men of their times have felt so
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Ravi Rustagi:
Thanks Ahmadbhai for the clarification, and it is a precious addition to my knowledge base on prophet Muhammad.
I sincerely believe that all scriptures are replete with gems of knowledge, but humanity for the most part is not aware of that treasure.
A request- Kindly tell me an important and popular short prayer in Islam, similar to the two line Gayatri Mantra of the Hindus. It should be easy to remember, easy to chant, and easy to understand even for me. Not knowing Arabic.
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S Dayal :
In God, We Trust ...
Rest is all ... Cash.
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From: रघुवीर रुस्तगी :
अोम् नमो अशोक जी व सुधाकर जी
Thanks for your kind messages.
May I represent Sudhakarji’s remark with a little twist, (replace cash by TRASH) -
In God, We Trust ...
Rest is all ... TRASH
Let me illustrate this twist from recalling an Akber-Birbal anecdote.
In Akber’s court, a poet came from a distant kingdom, trying to win royal favours by lavish praise of the Emperor. The poet sang the following song in Urdu -
"Akber is great
Akber is invincible
Akber is the richest
Akber is most merciful
Akber is most compassionate
Akber is the only saviour"
The courtesans were in full agreement with the poet, and were clapping all the time. The Emperor was as well showering with costly gifts.
When the courtesans were at the peak of being receptive, the poet changed his tone …….
"Akber is an Avatar of Bhagwan … and there were non-stop clapping and congratulations"
Now the poet fired his last salvo, expecting to be nominated as poet laureate of Akber’s vast kingdom-
"Akber is even more powerful than Supreme Allah or Bhagwan"
But there was a pin drop silence; no one clapped and everyone was looking around who would give the leading clap. On such knotty occasions, some jealous-minded courtesan thought it is an opportunity to shame Birbal, and suggested to the Highness that Birbal should give the right answer - yes or no.
Birbal was now put on the spot. He thought for a while, and said " yes, His Highness is better than Allah the best".
Birbal instantly offered the following explanation-
Sir, Your Majesty can choose to expel anyone out of the territorial boundary of your kingdom, but Allah cannot do so. Hence, Akber the great is more powerful.
The courtesans asked- why Allah cannot do so?
Birbal replied, "because there are no set boundaries of Allha’s territory. If His Highness trusts in Allah, there is nothing else inside or out of God's infinite universe. There are no neighbourly kingdoms etc.”
Friends, Let us remember the Purna mantra
ॐ पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदं पूर्णात्पुर्णमुदच्यते पूर्णश्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥ ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ...
So my dear Sudhakarji, my humble request- I am glad you trust in God, then there is no REST, but TRASH.
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Ashok Malhotra :
Reading Sh Rastogi's anecdotal reply n the roles of Akbar-Birbal-n the courtisans, I am reminded of Churchill's observation about Indians (!!??), though chilling a bit, but still largely valid:
"If you praise an Indian, he thinks, you are either afraid of him or you have an axe to grind"
I hope, being an expat for long years rubs off a bit of Indian ness.
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From: Rustagi
I ever appreciate and enjoy the freedom and mutual respect in all messages in our Group. Let the British Raj and Churchill remain buried in their coffins. We Indians have shown we can manage better without them. You are true Ashokji they were scared as well as had axes to grind.
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Ashok Malhotra
Agreed Rustagiji....Let the British Raj and Churchill remain buried in their coffins but along with Akbar Birbal n the courtesans.
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From: Rustagi
Ek Kahe Dooje Ne Maani
( Nanak kahe dono gyani.)
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