Sunday, 29 May 2016

Quantum Computing and Obsolescence

This thread started with a news about the new trends in 'Quantum computing', but as nobody knew much about it, the discussion went on the more familiar topic of obsolescence. 

Mohan Rao  
A whole class of new technologies based on Quantum Computing are making their debut into the commercial world, according to Canadian media. The head-on between Apple and the FBI recently reported might have something to do with it. Also, the statements made by PM Trudeau at Waterloo recently has made QC a cool topic to delve into. The widely used PKC (public key cryptography) so far the flagship method for protecting privacy by the industry and the governments may become obsolete in the face of fast-speed QCs. Cracking a code may become near-impossible. Quantum-resistant algorithms will likely replace the current PKC technologies on a large scale. The Communications Security Establishment (CSE) could break into current PKC protected info while used in a defensive posture. Currently IQC and MIT hold the world record for the most quantum used in experiments. The race seems to be on to build large-scale computers based on quantum bits.
Something to keep an eye on for the C&I people in our community.

S Dayal  
RTFP from the report given by you.
... might have something to do with ...
... may become obsolete ...
... will likely replace ...
Such statements express possibilities. Here people have dirtied their hands on hard core real stuff, during their tenure. They may be looking for real stuff.
I am not sure if there is even a basic quantum computer exists even in Labs.


Mohan Rao : 
Definite answers which you are seeking will take more research. I cannot stretch the words to make them more definitive.
Nor do I have the resources or expertise to go into these in more depth. The sending of this post is meant to let the community know something news-worthy they may be interested in, however sketchy, and I am sure people will not act on it without further investigations on its own even if it gets interested.


Ashok Malhotra: 
        My apprehensions about the QC are more basic, not a question to you.
         As I understand, the QCs are not O-I language based. Hence all the present set of programmes n works, developed with a monumental human effort over the last 40 years or more will either need to be transferred or worse, rewritten to QC programmes. Hope I am wrong.

You are NOT wrong. It can be worse.
All the knowledge I painstakingly developed by pouring over many textbooks like FETerman, Arguimbau and others, starting from Thermionic emission , wading through wonderful space charge, the grid of a triode, and many more grids later for many more special effects, all after my graduation and entry into service, in a short spell of 4/5 years
WERE ALL DOWN THE DRAIN, along with the numerous text books and technologies, after the sudden advent of transistors, to be  quickly replaced again by  FETs, integrated devices, microprocessors, multi processors and computers!
The wiring of circuits on  dirty tables  gave way to the white collar work in AC rooms of software!
That is Tech- Boom

S Dayal
For every idea or an object, there is a unique Bath Tub Curve.
Every Bath Tub, has to have a drain plug, for "Down The Drain"
Even this Universe is equipped to send the Cosmic Matter and Time, down the drain.  And that drain is called ...  Black Hole !

Ashok Malhotra :
    I can well imagine Sh Natarajan's pains.
       The "Redundancy" of any kind, be it Man Powers, Trainings, Technology deployed, Education, Industrial Hardware n Software , Service tools et al is today a big threat to an Organisation's Economy.
      Though in the Management parlance, they talk of "threats n opportunities" scenarios to the Projects, I don't think a due importance is given to these factors. In the last 10 yrs, even a simple household TV has become Redundant 5 times, from CRT to Plasma to single chip to LCD to LED to OLED n what not.
   With all this, can any one say that the 85 yrs life scenario of a NPP,  is not a day dream?
     Shortly we will have the "Plant lives" defined on the basis of "Redundancy Factors" or at least discounted there of.

Mohan Rao :
Malhotra Saab and Natarajan Saab: Both of you are right on. It seems to be the story with all of human journeys, the only difference now being that change is occuring at a much faster speed (a point made, if I recall right, in a book called “Future Shock” by Alvin Toeffler a few decades ago). In the old, slower mode, we have methods used for communication: memorization, then scripts and writing, papyrus for recording, calligraphic writing, fonts, paper and typewriters, printing, explosion of books and literature; in the fast mode we have recording on tape, discs, DVDs, audio books, radio, television, movies, videos, computers and cloud storage, and in the works, we have DNA storage, and now quantum computers. Re Malhotra Saab’s Q, we are at the very beginning talking of a handful Q bits with IQC and MIT and there is long way to go to build large scale computers. Hopefully with the pace of modern technology, it may be a matter of a few years before they develop, and not a very long time (my guess!). Similarly, we can see inventions and their obsolescence in the development of arms from sticks, bows and arrows to thermonuclear weapons and other types of WMDs, in the development of transportation from carrying on human shoulders and head to wheels and in the faster mode we have automobiles, navigation, air flights, space travel, rockets and missiles etc. The human journey will probably go on unless we take the wrong turn in our travel with  intolerance and hatred, wars, and mutual destruction with genocide, nuclear and other holocausts etc, not including whatever else can happen in terms of epidemics, ecological destruction and natural events of astronomical magnitude (asteroid impact e.g.).

Ashok Malhotra :
   The QC are a different ball game in more ways than one. The Computers today are deployed in ways that are mathematical, where an algorithm/s can be written. They are supposed to give the same result every time.
    The QCs, I am afraid, like the QM, will give possibilities not the solutions, that may vary with each run, as the space-time Qantas can't be repeated. This is my understanding though. Thanks.

Ravinder Mago:
The progression of TVs you are referring to  is definitively not REDUNDANCY but obsolescence.

Ashok Malhotra :
Yes, for "TV technology", the word is obsolete (no longer in use), though an obsolete item may continue to be used as a standby or redundantly  
   I used the word "redundant" (superfluous-more than required) for humans, as obsolete can't be used.

Shah Nawaz Ahmad :
ECIL introduced TV< B&W in India
Keltron made it a cottage industry
Then whoosh both disappeared from the market and we were none the poorer
Cheer up!!


 Dayal :
Initially B&W TVs were designed in India.  Keltron also followed the same.
Subsequently TVs Cards were imported and they were assembled in India.  Commonly known as "Screw Driver Technology".
Samtel (in Hindi it was Sam Tal, meaning plain surface) could develop B&W picture tube.  This brought down the cost of TV and computer monitors.  But Samtel, tried to develop color picture tube and became financially unviable.
Rest is all history.

S Dayal :
Even several hundreds of students trained by me, have surpassed my knowledge and intelligence, and they are still further ahead of me, in many more areas of knowledge.
Well, that is the way every society grows.
I still regard you (Shri Ahmad) as an outstanding lighthouse of experience and wisedom.

There is an excellent Sher.
I am not sure if it fits in or not.
It goes like ...
Kadra Daan, Hamare Gulam,
Be Kadron Ke Hum Gulaam

Anand Ghare  (myself):
All of us have struggled very hard to get some things or reach somewhere and found subsequently that it became worth less due to changes in technology, life styles or obsolescence. But still we feel happy in fondly remembering those days because we thoroughly enjoyed them. It means we got more in return than what we gave during that time period.
We should also understand that what we have today is because what was there yesterday and will be the reason for what we may see tomorrow.
QC may bring a whole new world, but somebody will surely build bridges between old and new worlds for making the change painless, if it has to really happen.

K.Natarajan :
Observations on Mohan Rao's quantum computers.
'The quantum computing and the advanced algorithms of C&I people are rendered irrelevant  and thrown into dustbins by the fast advancing BIOCOMPUTERS.'
THIS IS WHAT YOU WOULD READ AS  NEWS, maybe just a decade from now!
Technology storm and rate of obsolescence, particularly in electronics, is mind boggling.
The mysteries of biotechnology have always been a challenge to thinking people, and the area, along with  nanotechnology, biophysics/chemistry/engineering  are being dug, deep and wide  and electrons will be swept aside  by DNA, proteins, nurons and what not as computing base, with the emergence of Biocomputers!
Maybe our worries on energy conundrum will also be history with Fusion reactors operating!
Imagination run riot!


Sunday, 22 May 2016

Some Discussion on Dhol Ganwaar .. (ढोल गँवार ....)

Ramachartmanas (रामचरितमानस), written by Goswaami Tulasidasji (श्री गोस्वामी तुलसीदासजी) is considered a very sacred religious book (पवित्र धार्मिक ग्रंथ) in Northern India. Many devout (भक्त) Hindus read some four liners (चौपाई) or two liners (दोहा) everyday and a Kaand (कांड) or the complete ग्रंथ on special occasions. They readily quote appropriate Choupaai (चौपाई) or Dohaa (दोहा) as guiding divine directive on different occasions in life. The most prominent of them is:
रघुकुल रीत सदा चली आय़ी, प्राण जाई पर वचन न जाई।।
The devout persons believe that every word in this ग्रंथ is sacrosanct and is not open to 'analysis' or comments from any (ignorant or unauthorized) person.  Criticism or objection is out of question. Anybody harboring a doubt about teaching of our scriptures is warned to get doomed to perish. (संशयात्मा विनश्यति).

However, people exposed to other sources of knowledge and thinking do not get frightened and raise doubts. That gave rise to some controversies.  A particular दोहा in रामचरितमानस has been interpreted in a negative manner by some people for many generations. That part of the चौपाई is :
 "Dhol, Gawar, Shudra, Pashu, Nari;  Sakal tadana ke adhikari”
ढोल गँवार शूद्र पशु नारी, सकल ताड़ना के अधिकारी
Popular meaning of the word 'Taadanaa (ताड़ना)' is 'heavy beating', as beating a large drum (ढोल) to produce a loud sound. So illiterate villagers, servants, cattle and women were clubbed together and commonly ill treated by some powerful people as if it was sanctioned by the holy scriptures.
Social changes taking place in our country during last century, especially after the Independance, moved towards equality of all men and women. So there were objections from different quarters to
i) equating women with animals and inanimate drums
ii) equating illiterate villagers and servants with animals and inanimate drums
iii) beating or ill treating any of them.
iv) promoting casteism and gender bias
A lot of hue and cry has been generated on these points over past some years and fueled by some leaders. However, one dare not find any fault with Goswaami Tulasidasji. The learned people (विद्वान लोग) came forward to promptly plead, with explanation, that Tulasidasji could not have advocated such inhuman behavior. He had used the word Taadanaa (ताड़ना) with an altogether different meaning. So different meanings were attributed to this word to get different interpretations.

I was having a curiosity about how such a चौपाई or दोहा has appeared in Ramaayana, basically an epic describing the life story of Prabhu Shree Raamachandraji (प्रभू श्रीरामचंद्रजी). I am sure that Raamachandraji known as Maraadaa Purushottam (मर्यादा पुरुषोत्तम) would have never made such sweeping statements. Then which character in the epic has said these words to whom and in which context? After a bit of search I found that The God of The Oceans appeared in the human form in front of Shri Raamachandraji and said these words. (Still people say it is history!) I did not even know that such a conversation had taken place.
The context of this conversation will be found in this blog.
Revised on 25/05/2016 and 15/06/2016 by addition of further mails.

From: Raghuveer Rustagi

In today’s blog, I like to touch base on the so called ‘degradation' of Dalits/Shudras in Hindu scriptures- particularly Manusmriti & Ramayana. Is the demand for an amendment in these timeless scriptures justified?

Let me take first Ramcharitmaanas by Goswami Tulsidassji- specific objection has been raised on chaupai 58.6 in Sunderkaand.
 "Dhol, Gawar, Shudra, Pashu, Nari  Sakal tadana ke adhikari”
ढोल गवार शूद्र पशु नारी सकल ताड़ना के अधिकारी
This is probably the most misunderstood ‘chaupai’ of goswami Tulsidass Ji(1532-1623) in Ramcharitmaanas.

In my recent India trip in March 2016, I visited Shankaracharya Govardhan Math in Puri, Odisha, and had an enlightening discussion with a swami-scholar in the Math.

1. Context: Lord Rama threatened to release a special arrow to dry up the ocean, as simple requests with the mighty sea for a passage to Ravan’s Lanka, had failed.
Varun, the lord of oceans arose, then humbly requested Rama not to do so, as it will be violating the maryada (मर्यादा) dignity of sea. Emphasis is laid not to threaten the dignity.

2. Meaning: To clarify the meaning of मर्यादा, Tulsidassji mentioned five other examples- Dhol, Gawar, Shudra, Pashu, Nari.
As sea water provides grandeur and dignity to ocean, a drummer hits the tabor to create a particular musical note, a herdsman chastises the animal by fondling and giving endearment to it, among hindu sanatanis the tradition of cherishing the woman folk (mother/sister/daughter/wife) with reverence is well known. There is a provision to chastise servants with a view to make them disciplined and educated.

One word, Tadana (ताड़ना) is used in 5 different ways- according to the different feelings as amorousness, friendliness, chastisement and parental affection- this is the poetic imagination of Tulsidas ji.
Tadan also means testing and training for purification of mind (मनःसमाधान)

Nowhere in Ramcharitmanas, a woman is described unworthy of worship.
Ex. Dhiraj, Dharam, Mitra Aur Naari, Aapad kal parakhiyahu chaari. (धीरज, धर्म मित्र और नारी, आपद काल परखियहु चारी। )(Aranya kaand chaupai 4.4)

In other Hindu scriptures too, woman is highly dignified as illustrated below.
Yatra Naryastu Pujyante, Ramante Tatra Devata यत्र नार्यस्तु पूज्यन्ते, रमन्ते तत्र देवताः।। ….(The Manusmriti 3.56)

3. Women, ill-bred, and boors can be found in all four Varnas (Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudras). It is therefore, not correct to distort the meaning and associate women with shudras. Significance of human life as described in our scriptures exactly applies to every human being, including womenkind and shudras. Remember the reverence received by ancient ladies Gargi, Maitreyi, Sulbha and Shabri etc. Respect accorded to non-brahmans Sanjay, Vidur and Valmiki and others is well known. According to scriptures, financial prosperity of Shudras is assured, without the need of arakshan reservation, if the varnashram principles are correctly followed.

4. अधिकारी: The word adhikar used by Tulsidass ji is very significant. Adhikar is used in the context of authority at birth given to each living or non-living entity as its innate nature, ordained by the Lord. Purpose of life is to bring out the manifested authority in our actions and thoughts. Adhikari is our tapas, not a punishment.

5. It is noted from above, a person learned in the science of religion, and conversant in ethics and psychology is required to understand the secret of words of the great sages, not censorious or opponent. Tulsidass ji was a learned and wise person, he would not sing the glories of ramrajya (रामराज्य) by creating a disorderly havoc and choose to disgrace women and shudras of that time or in the future.

 In conclusion, there are no objectionable words in our scriptures and there is no need to reprint the scriptures.
Bishnudeo Jha:  Apr 11 at 11:57 AM
I appreciate your study n insight about our religious books.
I would like to add few things
The word Dalit is no where appearing in any religious books. It is just political creation.
The Sudras were defined well before Tulsi Das and the categorisation was based on karmas. similarly Brahmans, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas were also defined based on many factors like socisl status, education level, life styles, their behavior pattern and above all their  domain expertise unlike the normal interpretation of these words merely based on the clan/kulas etc of birth.

Vinod Agrawal : Apr 12 at 5:41 PM
There is not a single objectionable word in RAMAYANA written by Goswami Tulasi Das. Many thousand persons have got Ph.D on translation or finding the meaning / emotions of RAMAYANA. There was a grate discussion on the चोपई ( ढ़ोर, गवार, शूद्र, पशु, नाड़ी। नोट नारी)।  the meaning has been derived by the KARMA.


S Dayal :
I was fortunate to attend and listen to the live lecture of Dr. Ram Kumar Verma, who has done PHd. on Ramayana, on this as well as other popular lines of Ramayana.

According to him, (after research and analysis) there is no "Comma" between, Pashu and Naaree.  Pashunaree, is a female form of daemon.
According to his thesis, Pashunaree were Tadkaa, SoopNakha ... (many more cited in his research)

In India, there is a tradition to worship female form of God.  Again Dr. Verma, cited list ...
So the question of just an isolated word "Naaree" does not arise.  The lecture was so rich, in examples from Indian tradition and culture, that it kept the common audience, spell bound for two and half hours.
Alas, that rich tradition has slowly being diluted by economy, western / modern wayward culture.


Ravi Rustagi  Apr 14
Thanks for clarification- attempt. However, Tulsidass ji has not used comma anywhere in any chaupai. The elaborate system of punctuation such as comma, semi colon, colon, interjection, full stop etc  evolved later. The word Naree is isolated as written in Ramcharitmanas published by Gita Press Gorakhpur. I have a copy in my home.

 Dayal : Apr 14
Dr Ram Kumar Verma, analysis and conclusions are remarkable.
At one point of time all the manuscripts were burnt, the moment they were seen.  So there were group of people, who had memorized each Kand.
In order not to forget, one group will go in the forest and there will be mass chanting of one Kand of RAM Charit Manas.
They were also trained to have a good handwriting, (called Lipi, in Hindi), in order to write it legibly.

Ravi Rustagi
Sh Dayalji, Thanks for clarification- attempt. However, Tulsidass ji has not used comma anywhere in any chaupai. The elaborate system of punctuation such as comma, semi colon, colon, interjection, full stop etc  evolved later. The word Naree is isolated as written in Ramcharitmanas published by Gita Press Gorakhpur. I have a copy in my home.

 Dayal  Apr 14
Dr Ram Kumar Verma, analysis and conclusions are remarkable.
At one point of time all the manuscripts were burnt, the moment they were seen.  So there were group of people, who had memorised each Kand.
In order not to forget, one group will go in the forest and there will be mass chanting of one Kand of RAM Charit Manas.
They were also trained to have a good handwriting, (called Lipi, in Hindi), in order to write it legibly.
Vinod Agrawal  Apr 15

As regards RAMAYANA, there are various versions. Specially the lines  mentioned above. I think that this is the central point of research. To best of my knowledge our VEDAS have clear defined the Four classifications based upon the work they carry out.Hindu Mythology no where mentions the gradation based upon cast. This is the definition modern history has given due to survival of PANDITS. This cannot be taken as reference as dis course or evaluation of RAMAYANA. I do have attended discourses at GORAKHAPUR at GEETA PRESS.The original RAMAYANA is preserved there.
The word नारी  is refereed as नाड़ी. This changes the entire meaning. NADI is a known RH factor of blood. Our Vedas clearly say that the child of  married couple has effect of last 23 incarnations. Medical science also has proved this fact.
According to ASTROLOGY  नाड़ी दोष सबसे अहम माना गया है। Out of 33 events the most effective is this point only.What kind of child the couple is dependent of NADI effect. Hence there may be different versions.
The discourse I have attended way back in 1962 starts that to understand the meaning of RAMAYANA is completely based upon the mercy of GOD and most important the FAITH. Being a child at that age, I was told only two things 1. FAITH. 2.SANKALP. संकल्प सिद्धि it self a big chapter in life. The short meaning is what you want will happen. Here is that NATURE helps.
Ravi Rustagi : Apr 16
This is a new and controversial twist in Tulsidass ji’s Ramayana, and I had not heard it before that there are more than one version of Ramayana in the market, and by the same Geeta Press Gorakhpur.
I had a detailed discussion recently with a knowledgeable swami scholar in Jagannath Puri Math, who never said so. Moreover, the chaupai endings नारी नाडी are not in proper rhyme. Then the twist पसुनारी being one word without a comma, as suggested by Dayalji is an uncommon word in Hindi- difficult to gulp.
I suspect this is a way to give discredit to our scriptures, being labeled ambiguous, controversial and unrealistic!
Vinod Agrawal  Apr 16
Some big named have been taken who perhaps have total GYAN of of our grate Maha Kavaya THE RAMAYANA.and its विवेचना। There is nothing with me to do analyses as I am not the authority blessed by All Mighty to do any such sort of analyses.The very first page of Ramayan very clearly indicates that RAMAYANA HAS BEEN WRITTEN BY GOSWAMI TULASI DAS WITH THE BLESSINGS OF LORD RAMA AND WITH THE PERMISSION OF LORD SHIVA.
The person doing the analyses if not blessed by God is totally not authorized to do any sort of analyses. Ramayana also clearly say in big words that many such PANDITS will erupt to mislead public in this ERA  कलयुग॰
Me being a very small do not know much about analyses. But religiously read RAMAYAN daily past almost 50 years and daily found new meanings as I further read.
Anand Ghare  (myself) Apr 17
 I do not subscribe to a view that NONE has any right to say anything about certain scriptures. In my opinion. ALL books are meant to be read and understood. Not to be just worshiped. If the language is not currently in use, you have to interpret the meanings of some words as per your ability.
I was looking for the context in which this Chaupai is written and  came across one such interpretation that makes sense, on the link given below. The comlete Choupaai and its meaning is as follows.
प्रभु भल कीन्ह मोहि सिख दीन्हीं।
मरजादा पुनि तुम्हरी कीन्हीं॥
ढोल, गंवार, शुद्र, पशु , नारी ।
सकल ताड़ना के अधिकारी॥3॥
भावार्थ:-प्रभु ने अच्छा किया जो मुझे शिक्षा दी.. और, सही रास्ता दिखाया ..... किंतु मर्यादा (जीवों का स्वभाव) भी आपकी ही बनाई हुई है...!
क्योंकि.... ढोल, गँवार, शूद्र, पशु और स्त्री........ ये सब शिक्षा तथा सही ज्ञान के अधिकारी हैं ॥3॥
अर्थात.... ढोल (एक साज), गंवार(मूर्ख), शूद्र (कर्मचारी), पशु (चाहे जंगली हो या पालतू) और नारी (स्त्री/पत्नी), इन सब को साधना अथवा सिखाना पड़ता है.. और निर्देशित करना पड़ता है.... तथा विशेष ध्यान रखना पड़ता है ॥
The God of the Ocean says, "It is good that you have taught me a lesson and given guidance, but you only have set my limits. Drum, illiterate villagers, servants, cattle and women need to be directed or taken care of. (perhaps I am like them?)
क्या आप जानते हैं कि रामचरित मानस के... - Vaibhava Nath Sharma | Facebook

I do not think the explanations about नाडी or पसुनारी are convincing.
Shah Nawaz Ahmad  Apr 17
I wouldn't agree more Ghare Bandhu
The fear of being wrong dulls all creativity
I think that's why all scriptures dwell on seeking forgiveness
And inculcating kindness, which is another form of forgiveness
So let us discuss
But discuss with sensitivity
Vinod Agrawal  Apr 17 at

 As far as RAMAYANA is considered, this महा काव्य has been written by Goswami Tulasi Das way back in 1633.There is  short biography of Goswami Tulasi Das written in RAMAYANA before the actual Ramayan starts. According to that this book was written with the permission of GOD to save Human Kind from the torture and Crime of So Called PANDITS in the present era.
Any body can read these two pages right in start of Ramayana. In the Last chapter is UTTAR KAND ( उत्तर काण्ड ), one of the last pages may be (चोपाई 122) states to read the book leaving the analysis. I confess that I do not know the meaning of RAMAYANA. Neither I am allowed to find out, nor I have been blessed By ALMIGHTY to do so. As I part of daily routine following the best good I can do to my family to discharge my duties ( ग्रहस्थ आश्रम ), I read RAMAYAN DAILY. I spent good time as I simply like and at the same time I keep my self busy. Hence I will not be able to comment any further on the analysis part of RAMAYANA.

However, I must mention here that RAMAYANA does caution in clear words that there will be many persons in this era who will call them महा ज्ञानी। They will live a very lavish life. Most of the time they will attract opposite gender. I personally feel that few last pages of ( Uttar Kand )  may be read by the individuals interested in doing the analysis of HOLY book.


Mohan Rao  Apr 17
Agrawal Saab:  I happened to run into your statement wondering what Ramayana really meant. I think we have an all-loving God and I would not mind crossing wires with him once in a while and hence this post. I interpreted Ramayana more or less as the odyssey (prompted by the sub-word ayana) of Rama and as I see it, that is exactly what his life was. He opted to leave his rightful place as the heir of King Dasaratha, at the prompting of Kaikei (his aunt) who was driven by the urge of getting her son rule the kingdom, retreated to a forest where as fate would have it, lived a life with his brother Laxmana and wife Sita, in hut eating root vegetables and drinking stream water. His odyssey did not end there. Sita was lured into stepping out of her bounds in watching a deer and get kidnapped and end up in Lanka in the hold of Demon Ravana. Rest of Ramayana is all about his effort to locate and get his wife back after a war with Ravana. Furthermore Sita had to undergo a fire test to show her ‘purity’ when a ‘proletariat’ doubted her. I have not read Ramayana except in kid lit in my childhood and so pardon me if the story is not correct.
The point of Ramayana (or the Odyssey of Rama) is a testament to so many human values and one’s ability to withstand evil in life and an extraordinary  sense of fairness to all the people he rules that the word Rama Rajya came into being and Gandhiji used it as an exemplary way of meeting everyone’s expectations at phenomenal sacrifice to oneself. Rama is depicted as carrying a bow and arrows in symbolism and as someone pointed out tolerance has limits and there is such a thing as an ultimate call to set things right which he did in retrieving Sita from Ravana’s hold.

In the small hamlet I grew up we used to have night-log replay of the any of the ten avatars (Rama being one) during periods when monsoon didn’t wreak its havoc under the open sky where we used to carry our sleeping bags and watch the drama with sleepy eyes lying on dusty ground. I must confess most of what I remember of Ramayana is the visual knowledge of watching these night-long dramas, and won’t be surprised if some of what I heard or saw was somewhat stretched out (poetic license I guess). At another place in the world, Homer wrote his epic Odyssey which relates to wandering of Odysseus for ten years after the fall of Troy. There is something about these stories of wandering that innately satisfies the human spirit, I think. We are fortunate to have two of these (Ramayana and Mahabharata) both timeless epics sating our national ethos.

Ravi Rustagi  Apr 18

May I present the following bits of my mind.

1. The debate on intolerance can be summed up in two parts-
i). Everyone has a right to speak his mind, even if the voice is shaky, because it is his mind, and it is his tongue.
ii). No one, however has a right to speak other’s mind, like Tulsidassji’s mind in our ongoing debate, except a right to express his own shortcomings or ignorance with a desire to know better or remove personal ignorance. Take the example of Arjuna questioning Krishna left or right, because it was Arjuna’s right to ask question and dispel his ignorance pertaining to yoga. But Arjuna never ever expressed disbelief in Krishna’s preaching. This is called Shraddha, absence of all disbeliefs or misbeliefs. Shraddha is a virtue, Shansaya is a vice.
श्रद्धावान् लभते ज्ञानम्. संशयात्मा विनश्यति [BG 4.39, 4.40]. This is a fine line of demarcation between Shraddha and Sanshay. What is important is our motive Bhav, the purity of mind.

2. Let us be clear! we are very ordinary folks, compared to Tulsidass ji the rishi of his era. I fully support what sh VC Agarwalji asserts that the debate should not lose focus. Our purpose is to gain knowledge through interpersonal exchanges, rather than to show off one-up-man-ship or cause disrepute to any chaupai in Ramayana. I also agree that no one has a right to doubt any chaupai, in scriptures unless one can rise to that lofty level. The ‘misunderstood' freedom of speech is mostly in terms of political issues of today, and day to day living style in society, but not for religious scriptures.
Anand Ghare (myself) Apr 18 at 10:48 AM
I do not understand either Sanskrit or Awadhi. Neither I have any means to access any original manuscripts. So I do not have any means to know what exactly was written by Rishi Valmiki or Sant Tulsidasji. What I am reading is some commentaries written by lesser mortals of last century or the current period. There are a number of versions as they do not agree with each other. So whichever I follow, I am contradicting others. Does it mean I am showing disrespect to the Rishi?
I also have a firm belief that The God-made laws of nature are universal and they form my range of tolerance for believing any events given in the narration as myths or realities.
Shah Nawaz Ahmad Apr 18
We are all small children in front of Tulsidas
I wonder whether Tulsidas would have liked to put many injunctions to our interpretation, and understanding
Poetry is not to be understood, it needs to be revelled IN!
and i, Tulsidas is outstanding poetry!!
lets revel in the various hues of his poetry beautiful

Additions on May 25, 2016

Taswir Singh : May 23
After reading the blog I will like to agree with Sh V. C AGGARWAL JI  that interests of upper casts might have interpretted the said chopai to prepatuate  permission to tadna the lower casts,  animals   the women.
Thanks Gharae ji for your simple and straight answer that commners can also comment, on  any book and not just worship these.

It is impossible to believe that a rishi like Tulsidass can spread such a nonsense through his writing The Ramayana. (Also Maryada purshotam Shri Ram would be highly pained by such chopai as he himself  and respected everyone including animals, women, and  parja.
This is no coincidence that monkey brigade led by Hanuman ji partcipated in a big way to help him to locate Sita ji and then defeat Ravana and liberate her from his custody. Similarly when Shri Ram ji returned to Ayodhaya after completing 14 years  banwas every one celebrated the occasion irrespective of his cast or creed.
So there in all probability it is the upper cast who wrongly interpreted the chopai to fullfill their vested interest of exploiting the lower cast or downtroddens or women. (All above is from my common sense as a commoner)
Shakti Sharma : May 24
Tulsi dass's Ram charitra Manas is full of social philosophy. Pashu nari is one word.The lady whose behaviour is wild and violent need to dealt strongly.Tarka and Sharup nakhka were the example while Shabri who was  highly respected by Ram.He had relished her tasted Ber.This choupy is said by the character ocean personified in Sunder kaand when he refuse to cooperate after 3 days of request by Ram and Ram had to use His weapon power. Ram never had any contempt for low cast people.He went from Ayodhaya to Rishi Valmiki's ashram near Kanpur to seek his advice for future planning of his exile period.  On his way back from exile he took his blessings(Rishi Valmiki was of low cast by birth).
Honouring of Boat man Nishad Raj Guh while going and returning from exile is another example.
All His soldiers were monkeys and bears and He loved and respected them.
Here in this choupy tulsi das meant  " a non co-operating persons for a good cause" has to be dealt by force .
 A poet always speaks through his characters.He should be understood in the right prospective.
Dilip Vishwaroop : May 25
I have a different view on the explanation by Sh Shakti Sharma Ji.
The methodology to Train, Reform, Discipline or Punish Animals (ढोर) and Humans (here Females) can not be same or identical in nature by any wildest stretch of Logic or Imagination.
Keeping in mind how to deal with other Human beings in modern days, we all have to mould our thinking of getting things done through Brute Force. Whatever be the literacy status of the human being under question (except probably for the certified mentally sick and violent patients to keep them confined and not let them harm other innocent or non-related Society Members).
In case of a strained relationship due to either bad character or a totally negligent behaviour of the spouse (just because SHE happens to be a Wife and a FEMALE), one does not get a right to start physical abuse (even on the strength of some religious scriptures).
There are recourse available for handling those situations including a legal divorce. Not like earlier days of resorting to Abandonment or beating,  to force them to your whims.
In today's times the mental make up of the society members, specially the Male members, needs to be altered to tune up to the Evolved Standards of Equality and Dignity of the society members specially in view of the Education and the Economic Independence of the Fair Sex members.
Just because one's spouse is economically dependent and not earning, her social value and status does not get deleted. Violence in any form and for any reason ( " a non co-operating persons for a good cause" has to be dealt by force )  is strongly condemned (and Not Permitted) by the current Law of the Land.
I hope this is not taken in a wrong spirit and labelled as of voicing against Scriptures, but is taken as THE path to be followed in today's times.
There is absolutely not an iota of intention to hurt anyone's religious feelings. With malice to none !

Additions on 15/06/2016

Prakash dixit : (Jun 10)
Neither shri  Ram nor Tulsidasji 's thought is DHOL  GANWAR.  It is the  arrogant and jada buddhi Samudra who says those words .This way goswamiji has said that it is the persons like Samudra who say such things. (Samudra was arrogant in not yielding to sh Rama~s recquest for several days.  Jad Buddhi means not amenable to reason)  ( Thus we dont need to defend Tulsidasji)

From: Rustagi
Your message is a new twist on the vexing chaupai by Tulsidasji.
1. Even if Jad Buddhi Samudra is the origin, the primary responsibility still lies with the sole author, i.e. Tulsidass. In a court of law for example, the responsibility of criminal action cannot be passed on to the manufacturer of the weapon.
2. But I thought this chaupai has been dealt in ample detail. I had understood it satisfactorily from a Ramayan scholar of repute in Puri. He had explained to me - there are 5 different meanings of the word Tadana. It is the poetic genius of Tulsidasji to write a complex truth so concisely. My confusion melted away.

3. A comedian poet of Haryana admonished his wife repeating this chaupai. The wife replied - mharo naam ek baar; tharo naam char baar
Jun 14 : Comments from Ghare

This Chaupai has been discussed in detail and I think it was to the satisfaction of every one, at least almost!. 
However, I have a general query. An epic like Ramayana has several characters, some of them are negative, for example Kaikeyee, Mantharaa, Ravan, Shoorpanakhaa etc. They also would be having dialogues in the flow of the story.  Even Lakshmana is said to have lost his temper and raised his voice on an occasion. The chaupai gives thoughts of Jad Buddhi Samudra (Lord of seas) as PC Dixit has commented. I also feel we cannot say that what all of these characters spoke in the epic are the thoughts of the poet. He is giving the thinking of those characters and arguments on the opposite sides to view the issues in a broader perspective.

Shri K.Natarajan had raised this point long ago, probably by giving example of one Jabali, but perhaps it was not understood and sidelined by denying existence of that character in Ramayana or saying those were different days etc. 
However, the point remains and will remain forever.

Saturday, 14 May 2016

A diversion to शायरी

Ours is a unique group in which multi talented members can have exchanges on a wide range of matters. For a change, there were a number of mails on शेर ओ शायरी (Sher o shayari). It started with a couplet (शेर) from Ghalib and went on to add some more couplets, debated on their meanings and added a parody of Ghalibs famous couplets (गुस्ताखी माफ हो, मिर्झासाहब).

Then there is a beautiful tribute to poet Saahir Ludhiyanvi.
S Dayal  May 3,
गो हाथ को जुम्बिश नहीं, आँखों में तो दम है ,
रहने दो अभी, मीना-ओ-सागर  मेरे  आगे।
Ashok Malhotra  May 3 at 10:09 AM
Very very subtle Dayalji. ईर्शात
" नुक्ताची है ग़मे दिल किसको सुनाए न बने,
     क्या बने बात जहाँ बात बनाए न बने "
S Dayal  May 3 at 11:57 AM
Malhotra Jee,
Your first line, fits all the retirees ...
      ... well almost all !
Ashok Malhotra  May 3 at 12:43 PM
Of course my dear, you have said what was left unsaid by me. Of course you may know it but let me continue with the next couplet;
   " मैँ बुलाता तो हूँ उसको मगर ऐ जज्बेए दिल,
        उसपे बन जाए कुछ ऐसी कि बिन आये न बने

From Ghare:

I have done a crude translation from my meager knowledge of Urdu, taking some help from google. However, I feel the poetry has to be enjoyed only in the original form.

गो हाथ को जुम्बिश नहीं,    आँखों में तो दम है ,
रहने दो अभी, मीना-ओ-सागर  मेरे  आगे।
 Though my hands are motionless, my eyes are strong (can see).
let the glass and bowl of wine remain in front of me.

" नुक्ताची है ग़मे दिल उसको सुनाए न बने,
   क्या बने बात जहाँ बात बनाए न बने "
 I cannot tell the pain in my heart to her, because she is critic.
How can the task be done, when I cannot even say what I want to say?

   " मैँ बुलाता तो हूँ उसको मगर ऐ जज्बेए दिल,
        उसपे बन जाए कुछ ऐसी कि बिन आये न बने
I call her (to tell the feelings in my heart), but something happens to her so that she cannot help not coming.
Ashok Malhotra  May 3 at 10:35 PM
Ghareji a tremendous work again, your effort has conveyed to the whole group n removed the veil of snobbery associated with Ghalib's poetry, ....that only the properly educated understand him. Think the last "not" is not necessary. Thanks
Mohan Rao  May 3 at 10:36 PM
Ghalib reminds me of Omar Khayyam. They show the same level of optimism in life. From Omar Khayyam:
A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou.
Be happy for this moment. This moment is your life.
And my fav:
The moving finger writes and having written moves on.
anand ghare  May 4 at 12:21 PM
Comments from Ghare on Shri Malhotra's mail:
The sentence बिन आये न बने has two negatives, so I wrote "cannot help not coming."
What I understand that she cannot avoid coming.
 I had forgotten to give a link to the memorable song sung by beautiful Suraiya in her sweet voice. It is given below.
Padmakar Puntambekar  May 4 at 5:22 PM
Enjoying discussion on urdu shayari and making relevant to our group.
Ghare Saheb,  Malhotra, Mohan and Dayal ji keep it up.
S Dayal May 4 at 5:49 PM
Not a very popular one, as it challenges the Supreme Power

Waiz! Teri duaon mein asar ho to  वैझ तेरी दुआओं में असर हो तो,
      masjid hila kay dikha               मसजिद हिला के दिखा ।
    Nahin to do ghoont pee,            नहीं तो दो घूँट पी
      aur masjid ko hilta dekh          और मसजिद को हिलता देख ।।

If your devotion has strength,
then make the Mosque tremble.
Otherwise, have a couple of pints,
And watch the Mosque shake!

Ashok Malhotra  May 4 at 6:14 PM
Dear all, interested in this,
    Ghareji has used "she", Ghalib may not have meant so.
       I think at our age n the age at which Ghalib Sahib wrote it, a friend's coming is more awaited than a she's coming (unlike her going)!!!??? Don't blame me, if I am right.
Anand Ghare   May 4
Shri Malhotra could be right if you take only one stanza at a time. However, I have the complete gazal with me. The more famous last couplet is as follows;
Ishq par zor nahi hai ye
Wo aatish gaalib
Ki lagaaye na lage aur
Bujhaye na bane.
इश्कपर जोर नही ये वो आतिश है गालिब
कि लगाये ना लगे और बुझाये न बुझे

अब क्या कहने?
ravinder.mago  May 4 at 10:23 PM
इस रंग बदलती दुनिया में ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

हर शख़्स है रंग बदलने में माहिर,
कभी है जिहादी , तो कभी है काफ़िर
Ashok Malhotra  May 5 at 6:42 AM
"दुनिया बदल रही है आसुँ बहाने वाले....."  An old  sweet honey of Lataji
Ashok Malhotra  May 5 at 9:35 AM
Sh Ghareji,
  I am afraid I have to rebut your reply on use of "she".
    As per concept of "ghazal" quoted below from the Wiki,  couplets in a ghazal may or may not have the same thought.
     I had suspected it to be so but checked its veracity before replying. By such exchanges we all learn new things. Thanks
    Quote "Ghazal, is a set of two liner couplets, which strictly should end with the same rhyme and should be within one of the predefined meters of Ghazals. There has to be minimum of five couplets to form a Ghazal. Couplets may or may not have same thought. It is one of the most difficult forms of poetry as there are many strict parameters that one needs to abide by while writing Ghazal. It is important to think about the topic as well as the theme of a Ghazal before starting to write it. The first line of a Ghazal must include a Refrain, which is a word or a phrase that can be easily fitted into the other couplets. Each couplet of a Ghazal is known as Sher, which forms a Shayari. Thus, it means that different Shayaris together form a Ghazal. "
anand ghare  May 5 at 10:34 AM

Thanks Janaab Ashok Malhotra Saahab for continuing this dialog, quite educative for me. So far I had liked filmi gazals and those sung by Begum Akhtar, Ghulam Ali, Jagjit Singh etc. mainly for their musical value and tried to understand their meaning for better appreciation. So I did not bother to find out finer points like meanings of words  गजल, शेर, मिसरा, नज्म etc. I have now started from ABC. It is never too late to learn!

I had a notion that various couplets sung one after another in a song sequence are having a continuity of subject matter, though somewhat loose. Hence, I concluded from the last Sher that this complete set of couplets is about a real or imaginary 'she'.

The beauty of a good poem by a great poet in any language, is the depth of its meaning such that it may be possible to interpret it differently depending upon the time, space and imagination of the interpreter. So 'उस को' may fit with 'him' or 'her' or even to 'Him'.
Ashok Malhotra  May 5 at 11:17 AM
Sh Ghareji,
   Well said n accepted, in the spirit of a small follower of old songs n shayari, like you.
Mohan Rao  May 5 at 12:09 PM
 One of the lesser known things about this mystic’s life was his lettermanship and the way he used to take on the British with his never-ending chain of convoluted letters. I recall reading about this in a Penguin book on his life and times.
A joke: once he was hauled before the British Colonel for some act of defiance or ‘wrong-doing’. The colonel asked him:”Are you muslim?” Ghalib replied: “ Only half; I drink wine but eat no pork”. I heard this one on the Wiki.
They say pen is mightier than the sword.

PS: Another serious joke. In a similar situation, young Gandhiji was hauled before the South African Government for an interview. The official sincerely offered him something to eat before starting the conversation. Gandhiji replied: “No Thanks. I dined in the prison”. This is a snippet from the movie “Gandhi”.

Now that these are all pieces of history, we can chuckle about the weirdness of these situations.
S Dayal  May 5 at 12:17 PM
Mirzaa ... of Internet's kind
मिर्ज़ा ग़ालिब कमरतोड़ महगाई और गरीबी से तंग आकर
डाकू बन गए और डकैती करने एक बैंक गए ,
बैंक में घुसते ही हवाई फायर करते हुए " अर्ज़ किया -
"तक़दीर में जो है वही मिलेगा,
कोई अपनी जगह से नहीं हिलेगा...!!
ग़ालिब ने फिर ऊँची आवाज में अर्ज किया -
"बहुत कोशिश करता हूँ उसकी यादों को भुलाने की,
ध्यान रहे कोई कोशिश न करना पुलिस बुलाने की...!!
फिर कैशियर की  कनपटी में बंदूक रखते हुए  से कहा-
"ए खुदा तूं कुछ ख्वाब मेरी आँखों से निकाल दे,
जो कुछ भी है, जल्दी से इस बैग में डाल दे...!!
कैश लेने के बाद ग़ालिब ने लाकर की तरफ इशारा करके कैशियर से कहा -
"जज्बातों को ना समझने वाला इश्क क्या सम्हालेगा
लाकर का पैसा क्या तेरा अब्बू बाहर निकलेगा ..!!
जाते जाते एक और हवाई फायर करते अर्ज किया -
"भुला दे मुझको क्या जाता है तेरा,
मार दूँगा गोली जो किसी ने पीछा किया मेरा...!!
Sanjay Gupta  May 5 at 12:32 PM
Dear Ghare saab/Malhotraji
Continuing the discussion, I agree with Ghare Saab that the sher under discussion is about she (lady love) and not a friend (he/she) because when opening sher is about not being able to convey the pain (complaint ) in the heart to someone (he/she), and in the next, he is talking about जज्बेए दिल (the feelings of heart) then being a man himself, it has to be addressed to a female/lady love only.
Ashok Malhotra  May 5 at 2:24 PM
Its lucky to be a youth of early 60'ees but a wiser council n wider meaning of life may manifest on crossing 70ees. So pl wait a while.
Ashok Malhotra May 6 at 6:52 AM
Another gem on present contradictions-
निदा फाजली ने क्या खूब कहा है....
"उसके दुश्मन बहुत हैं,
आदमी जरूर अच्छा होगा।"

Another exquisite शेर with a lot of life meaning:
"मैँ नज़र से पी रहा था, मुझे दिल ने बद दुआ दी,
   तेरा हाथ ज़िंदगी भर कभी जाम तक न पहुंचे"

Tribute to Saahir Ludhiyanvi.

On Saahir Ludhiyanvi
Ravinder Mago : Apr 20 at 9:09 AM
एक रूमानी कवि :
अभी ना जाओ छोड़ कर कि दिल अभी भरा नहीं
एक दार्शनिक कवि :
मै पल दो पल का शायर हूँ
एक खिन्न कवि :
कभी कभी मेरे दिल में खयाल आता है
एक समर्पित कवि :
मेरे दिल में आज क्या है तू कहें तो मैं बता दूँ
एक जीवन से संतुस्ट कवि :
मांग के साथ तुम्हारा
एक प्रेमिका से समझोता करने वाला कवि  :
चलो इक बार फिर से अजनबी बन जाए हम दोनों
एक उदास कवि :
जाने वो कैसे लोग थे जिनके प्यार को प्यार मिला
एक निश्चित कवि :
मैं जिंदगी का साथ निभाता चला
एक असांसारिक कवि :
ये दुनिया अगर मिल भी जाए तो क्या है
एक देशप्रेमी कवि :
ये देश है वीर जवानों का
एक विद्रोही कवि :
जिन्हें नाज़ है हिंद पर वो कहाँ है
एक निराशावादी कवि :
तंग आ चुके है कशमकश-ए-जिंदगी से हम
एक मानवतावादी कवि :
अल्ला तेरो नाम ईश्वर तेरो नाम
एक धर्मनिरपेक्ष कवि :
तू हिंदू बनेगा ना मुसलमान बनेगा
एक छेड़छाड़ करनेवाला कवि :
ए मेरी जोहराजबी तुझे मालूम नहीं
एक याद ताज़ा करनेवाला कवि :
जिंदगी भर ना भूलेगी ये बरसात की रात

इन सभी कवियों का एक ही नाम है : साहिर लुधयानवी
उनके 94 वें वर्षगांठ पर उन्हें सलाम ।
Anand Ghare :
Even though Sahir Ludhiyanvi wrote these lines;
मैं पल दो पल का शायर हूँ, पल दो पल मेरी कहानी है
पल दो पल मेरी हस्ती है, पल दो पल मेरी जवानी है
मुझसे पहले कितने शायर, आए और आकर चले गए,
कुछ आहें भरकर लौट गए, कुछ नग़मे गाकर चले गए
वो भी एक पल का किस्सा थे, मै भी एक पल का किस्सा हूँ
कल तुमसे जुदा हो जाऊँगा, जो आज तुम्हारा हिस्सा हूँ"
He became part of us permanently and will live as long as we would and even thereafter. He became immortal especially through his lyrics for Pyaasaa and Kabhie Kabhie, movies centred on the lives of poets. You really need a gifted poet like Sahir to do justice to the theme of such sensitive movies. Even though Sahir wrote his poems in Urdu, they were very easy to understand with basic knowledge of Hindi and Urdu.

B.B Narang  Apr 21 at 3:48 PM
Sahir was a great Urdu shayar as well as Hindi poet.He could introduce Punjabi words in Hindi film songs with quite an ease.Lot of credit for popularity of his film songs also goes to the great music composers he collaborated with like S.D.Burman,O.P.Nayyar,Jaidev,N.Dutta,Ravi,Roshan,Madan Mohan, Khayyam, R.D.Burman and Laxmikant Pyare Lal.

Wednesday, 4 May 2016

Diet and Blood Cholesterol, Statins and COQ

Cholesterol has been a leveler. It was considered a cause of concern, especially for people living a comfortable life style, making them forgo some nice food and regularly swallow tablets to keep it under control, thus making them feel a little uncomfortable. Good and Bad cholesterols were identified and there were a number of claims by various food products about how they promoted Goodies and check Baddies.

It was said, probably by a rival lobby, that the fear of cholesterol was fanned by manufacturers of a family of drugs called Statins. These drugs controlled Cholesterol levels, but caused weakening of muscles. Another set of drugs or rather food supplements called CoEnzimes were promoted to counter the effects of Statins. This expensive therapy evoked a mixed response.

This topic again started making headlines as some notification from US Govt is reported to have accepted that Cholesterol is not a cause of concern.

Various sets of opinions, real life experiences and advice were expressed on this topic.

 Some related articles are given on these links
Cholesterol Myths ... ???
All about Cholesterols - Good and Bad
How to Reduce Your Cholesterol Levels!
Cholesterol, Alcohol, Heart and Brain


S Dayal : Date: Feb 3 2016

Cholesterol is finally officially removed from Naughty List

The US government has finally accepted that cholesterol is not a 'nutrient of concern', doing a U-turn on their warnings

In the meantime of 40 years US Drug Industry in connivance with Health Department made over 1.5 trillion US Dollars by selling cholestrol lowering drugs. This fear probably caused death of a million gulliable citizen who believe the US drug industry.

comment by Nikki Barri

Cholesterol has been on the "naughty" list of nutrients for nearly 40 years, with health officials warning us to stay away from high-cholesterol foods since the 1970s to avoid heart disease and clogged arteries.

"Full-fat dairy products and advocados are high in good fats."

But US officials have finally given the green light for a U-turn on previous warnings, which means eggs, butter, full-fat dairy products, nuts, coconut oil and meat have now been classified as "safe" and have been officially removed from the "nutrients of concern" list.

The US Department of Agriculture, which is responsible for updating the guidelines every five years, stated in its findings for 2015: "Previously, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommended that cholesterol intake be limited to no more than 300 mg/day.

"The 2015 DGAC will not bring forward this recommendation because available evidence shows no appreciable relationship between consumption of dietary cholesterol and serum (blood) cholesterol, consistent with the AHA/ACC (American Heart Association / American College of Cardiology) report.

"Cholesterol is not a nutrient of concern for overconsumption."

"Eggs are no longer on the 'naughty list'. "

The Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee will, in response, no longer warn people against eating high-cholesterol foods and will instead focus on sugar as the main substance of dietary concern.

The 70s, 80s and 90s were the 'non fat' years, with the government warning people to limit the amount of high-cholersterol foods in their diets to avoid heart disease and strokes.

But nutritionists and scientists have long been campaigning for the U-turn, which started with introducing "good cholesterols" back into the 'safe zone'.

US cardiologist Dr Steven Nissen said: "It's the right decision. We got the dietary guidelines wrong. They've been wrong for decades."

He esitmated that about 20 per cent of cholesterol levels in your blood come from your diet, which means the rest is produced by your liver and is actually needed by the body.

Dr Chris Masterjohn added:“Since we cannot possibly eat enough cholesterol to use for our bodies’ daily functions, our bodies make their own.

"When we eat more foods rich in this compound, our bodies make less. If we deprive ourselves of foods high in cholesterol - such as eggs, butter, and liver - our body revs up its cholesterol synthesis."

"Nuts were previously thought to contain too much cholesterol."

Sugar has now been identified as the "worst" food culprit for health problems, with GPs now focusing on weaning patients off the sweet stuff.

Cardiologist Dr Aseem Malhotra, who works with group Action On Sugar, says a clamp-down on the food industry is next.

He said: "It's very clear that added sugar has absolutely no nutritional value whatsoever and, contrary to what the food industry want you to believe, the body doesn't require any carbohydrate for energy from added sugar.

"And we know the food industry have been spiking our food with added sugars. We also know that carbohydrates and particularly refined carbohydrates - so carbohydrates that lack fibre, sugar being one of them - have the biggest impact on insulin in terms of surges of insulin in our body. And insulin is a fat storing hormone." So, in summary, ditch your skinny latte for a full-fat latte and get some avocados down you.

The Real Truth about Cholesterol

The majority of the cholesterol in you is produced by your liver. Your brain is primarily made up from cholesterol. It is essential for nerve cells to function. Cholesterol is the basis for the creation of all the steroid hormones, including estrogen, testosterone, and corticosteroids. High cholesterol in the body is a clear indication
which shows the liver of the individual is in good health.

Dr. George V. Mann M.D. associate director of the Framingham study for the incidence and prevalence of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and its risk factors states: "Saturated fats and cholesterol in the diet are not the cause of coronary heart disease. That myth is the greatest deception of the century, perhaps of any century"
Cholesterol is the biggest medical scam of all time.
There is no such thing as bad Cholesterol! Men of science have abandoned truth for money. Attempting to control cholesterol is a very, very dangerous practice that occurs in every hospital and medical clinic daily.

By Ron Rosedale, MD
"Statin Drugs Actually Increase Heart Disease"

So you can stop trying to change your Cholesterol level. Studies prove beyond a doubt, cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease and it won't stop a heart attack. The majority of people that have heart attacks have normal cholesterol levels.
By K.L. Carlson, MBA
Cholesterol guidelines have been created to increase pharmaceutical profits, not to improve peoples’ health. I know from my experience as a pharmaceutical sales representative for a statin drug. We were trained to emphasize to physicians the new lower LDL guidelines that were ostensibly created by health experts. The truth is the majority of the experts who created the lower guidelines have multiple financial ties to pharmaceutical companies. One expert was found to have ties to ten drug firms

ONLY 15% OF CHOLESTEROL IS BEING DONATED BY THE FOOD WE EAT. If the fat content is less in our food we eat, our liver
Got to work more to maintain the level at 950 mg. If the cholesterol level is high in our body, it shows the liver is working perfect. Experts say that there is nothing like LDL or HDL.
….. Cholesterol is not found to create block any where in human body. Why does it create block only in heart, where as calcium sediments create
Block all over the body .. for example kidney, pancreas. Urinary bladder, gall bladder etc etc

JNC VIII 2014 has also relaxed the BP target. Let live simple and stress free...
Taswir Singh :
Thanks for the information.
But now on wards, if this is  true people will loose faith in world leader of science and capitalism.
It is actually shame on the part of USA pharma industry, which has been exploiting gullible citizen for so many years at a stretch.
Thottappilly Premachandran :
More strange is that no one in the group(perhaps many may be using cholesterol medicines in this group!) is not picking up this subject. I am sure it is a very critical subject and not mundane.
I am requesting our honourable members from USA to look in to this topic and enlighten us. What I heard is that the origin of this discovery is from there.
N P Sharma :
It is still very difficult for the doctors to stop cholesterol medicines. Last month my wife's cholesterol was within normal range , so I asked the nephrologist if we can stop the medicine now as it is anyway not a critical parameter. But he advised to continue the medicine.
Anand Ghare :
As I have understood From Googling, Cholesterol in Blood and that in food are two different things, somewhat loosely connected. It is not necessary that all the cholesterol you eat gets converted in to or is directly added to your blood stream. It is also possible or rather common that body produces its own cholesterol from Carbohydrates eaten in excess.
Actually Cholesterol is also very much essential for proper functioning of our body, but if the bad cholesterol is in excess, it gets deposited at unwanted places and the good cholesterol tries to remove it from them. Appears funny but true!
So if you have a tendency of high cholesterol levels in blood either burn it with exercise or use drugs to control. It is also not necessary that the cholesterol in blood will get deposited in arteries and cause blockages. That may depend on other factors and which artery is affected when is statistical in nature. We have seen very healthy looking people suddenly fall ill and when checked by Angiography they are found to have 70-80% blockages. So as a precautionary measure, doctors keep advising medication, not necessarily under influence of Drug trade.
There are conflicting opinions about cholesterol in Ghee and Coconut oils, many people advocating their use. I think if we are used to it, let us only have some moderation. However, keeping a watch on total food consumption is must, especially in old age.
Mohan Rao :
Cholesterol is a fat substance naturally present in blood and cells.  There are two types: LDL and HDL. High cholesterol usually refers to high LDL (“bad”) cholesterol. The target level is 2.0 mmol/l. It can increase the risk of cardiovascular disease. The goal is to lower it. One should check with the physician if you should be on medication to achieve this. On the other hand, HDL (“good”) can reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases if it present at higher levels. Triglyceride is also a form of fat that the body makes from sugar, alcohol and other food sources. Healthy eating habits, regular physical activity can help you manage cholesterol and reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases.
Healthy eating tips: choose lower fat foods, limit saturated fats avoid trans fats, limit food sources of cholesterol and choose high fiber foods. To lower LDL (“bad”) cholesterol, replace saturated fats and trans fats with small amounts of unsaturated fats such as vegetable oils (canola, peanut, olive), use nuts and seeds such as peanuts, almonds and ground flax or soft non-hydrogenated margarine. Choose lower-fat milk (skim) or milk products (yogurt) or soy or rice-based substitute products. Use whole grains, high fiber grains with soluble fiber (barley, brown rice, multi-grain pasta). Choose low-glycemic index foods. Choose unprocessed fruits for more fiber. Choose fresh vegetables, with a variety of colors, and high fiber. Choose fatty fish (salmon, trout, sardines), plant proteins (Vegetarians note: legumes, lentils, Tofu), lean meats (visible fat trimmed, skin removed from poultry. Choose lower-fat cheese (less than 20% milk fat).
People with diabetes have an increased risk of cardiovascular diseases even if their LDL-cholesterol is normal and even higher risk if LDL cholesterol is elevated.
The info is summarized from Canadian Diabetes Association literature.

I am attaching an article which Mr.Dayal or somebody else circulated in the NPCIL retirees group, written by a well known correspondent Nikki Barr either in Washington Post or another Newspaper. Review of various health advises was done once in every five years by the US government authorities and the latest was done in January this year. Similar articles were written in various newspapers in the first week of January on this U-turn policy by the US Government. My brother-in-law is a practicing Cardiologist here in the US for the last 25 years. I asked my wife, who is right now visiting him, to check with him on this, since she and myself take Lipotor, brand name for Atorvastatin 5mg every day. He is aware of the developments and advised us to discontinue the medication.

We have to make a clear distinction between diet-cholesterol and blood cholesterol. As written in the article, most of the cholesterol requirement by the body is made in the body by Liver. If there is any deficiency in the body's requirement Liver makes it up. It is known that Liver makes about 80% of the body requirement and if diet supplies more than 20% of the requirement, Liver makes what is deficient. Like the article says correctly, Trans-fats and Saturated fats in the diet have to be avoided, since they get deposited anywhere including the coronary arteries.

I am writing this because somebody opined that nobody residing in the US has written on this important subject. Hope I am not contradicting any opinion expressed by anybody and offending him.
Mohan Rao :
 The general wisdom seems to be that cholesterol has to be controlled by healthy eating habits and regular exercise. But there seem to be cases where cholesterol is stubborn including people who already had heart attacks/strokes etc and sometimes even younger people. Physicians should be consulted and go with their recommendations for lowering cholesterol with drugs. I cannot comment on whether there has been some abuse by the US drug industry in this regard.

Mohan Rao :

The dialectic of the cholesterol debate captured by Shri Sudhakar Dayal in his email was doubly interesting: on the one hand, it was demystifying cholesterol which had captured public opinion as the culprit for heart attacks for so long and on the other it described new medical opinion of the related agencies in the US as to the so-called naughty list of food nutrients in this debate in the light of new opinions.

Cholesterol does not have to be in the so-called naughty list (personally I think such a list is misleading) since as Ghare Saab has pointed out that cholesterol has a job to do in the body and is produced by the body as well as contributed to by the food-chain. There is a problem of controlling excess cholesterol in the body for the well-known reasons and the pharmaceutical research for the cholesterol lowering drugs was necessitated on that account. The expenses reported (1.5 trillion dollars) seem to be huge but justifiable given that what has emerged in terms of treatment is not snake oil but a range of useful pharmaceutical products in market world-wide which are saving lives every day. I  do not have the personal knowledge to judge the reported deaths of a million ‘gullible’ citizens from  the use of cholesterol drugs directly attributable to the drugs.

It was known that cholesterols are needed for the body and what was missing perhaps in the debate was how much is appropriate and a yardstick for moderation such that excess cholesterol does not become a problem instead of a nutrient. The earlier limit of 300 mg/day seems to be now discounted and perhaps reflects need of a revision of this number. The report talks about scientists and nutritionists moving cholesterol limits to the ‘safe’ zone but how safe is safe is not made known. Without limits, cholesterol consumption will swing from the previous levels to no levels at all and given the gumption of food, dairy and meat industries, the debate will have to swing back at some point to some level of rationality given that cholesterol is needed but not in excess. Dr, Masterjohn’s statement that we cannot possibly eat enough cholesterol and the body has to makes its own does not seem credible to me without some limit on what we can consume.

Consuming unlimited amount of cholesterol-containing foods such as eggs, dairy products and meats will only exacerbate the problem and unduly stress the natural systems in the body in controlling cholesterol. I would imagine that even if the new research is trying to correct the old understanding to remove the unnecessary stigma attached to high cholesterol foods, certain degree of moderation in the consumption of saturated fats would be prudent if nothing else.


Taswir Singh :
Some deaths might have occurred because people were weaned away from good foods like eggs animal fats coconut oil and desi ghee.
As these products provide good amount of energy for sufficient long time person eats less and instead of gaining weight looses weight.
However in the absence of such foods public started taking fast food along with lot of coke and other energy providing drinks and started gaining lot of weight.
This is one of the reason for increase in the population of OBESE people in  USA and other countries like Australia etc.
It led to all type of problems like diabetes, B.P and joint pains.
Eating eggs and desi ghee in moderate qty. reduces weight.
Taking coke bakery products like cakes sweets etc increase weight and many a times lead to obesity.
Taking statins etc for controlling cholesterol is required definitely if ones body is prone to producing high amount.

B.B Narang :

I would like to add following points on cholesterol:

Studies carried out in U.S.A if involves white race will not be applicable to Indians(brown race) since Indians have more tendency for formation of cholesterol and their arteries are relatively narrower.

Doctors,to start with suggest preventive measures like change in food habits and going for walk/exercise to bring down levels of bad cholesterol( LDL and VLDL which is equal to Triglecerides/5) and increase good cholesterol,HDL. If these measures fail,only then they prescribe statins which have side effects.

After a certain age,one has to go for regular checkups as a preventive measure.If problem has started ,go to a good doctor,have faith in him and follow his instructions strictly.

One point which is missed by many doctors is role of mental stress on formation of certain hormones which get converted into bad cholesterol.Many persons could get rid of statins by doing meditation and breathing exercises etc.In this regarding I am forwarding an article on role of mental stress in mental and physical health.
Nandkishore Agarwal
What Shri Narang has said is right. Unfortunately, once you develop some cardiac problem leading to an angioplasty or balooning even, no doctor wants to take the risk of avoiding statins for the patient. No doctor wants to take it out of his prescription the statins even though knowing fully well that long term use of statins lead to muscle weakness and various other problems. Their principle is simply" you have to chose between the two known devils. Problem with heart or with muscles". And the use of statins contiue.

S. Nanda kumar' :
I have undergone bypass surgery in1998 and I am taking statin for past 18 years. I have not experienced any side effects. But I also take co-engyme Q-10 supplement to off set statin

S k chadda
co-engyme Q-10 supplement to off set statin
Is it the full name of priscription and what is the dose and how many times a day.

I had discussed this with our doctors some times back. They are either not aware or at leaast told me that it is not required. I am not really sure about its availability and if under any trade name in India. I have also read about it in the american medical files but nobody in India seems to be talking about it. This is considered to be a good substitute for statins minus the later's side effects.
To add about what shri nandkiumar says, I hv myself been taking statins since my first angioplasty in 2006. Only thing is when there used to be pain in my calf muscles, some times the doctors used to subscribe it to statins but with the immediate rider that you have to choose between the two evils what is good for you.

Anand Ghare :
Different brands of COQ are available in Indian market, from a few mgs to a few hundred mgs per tablet. They are not substitutes to Statins. They are rather expensive food supplements and are supposed to strengthen muscles to counter the weakening effect of statins. I used to have cramps in my legs in my sleep or when I was getting up in the early mornings and was advised to take them. I have taken them on and off, but did not come to know whether they actually worked and to what extent. I reduced the dose of Rosuastatin in consultation with my doctor from 10 mg to 5 mg and the problem of cramps almost stopped. I stopped taking COQ thereafter.

Krishan Chopra :
I took statins for almost 22 years and left a year ago when I could no longer tolerate the side effects.I am now in the process of expeimenting with herbal medecines and other natural treatment like taking salad and fruits 15 minutes before food. My total cholestrol has not gone up much but in the process of coming down but still little above 200 .Next blood test will give me a better confidence and there after I would put the details .

Ravi Rustagi :
In such a situation of deaths and calamity, attributable directly to cholesterol drug use, there would be class-action law suits, recalls and what not. I have not seen anything like this yet. Remember, America is a capitalist society, the goal is to make or save as much money as possible, within legal framework.
Still the question remains- why the pharmaceutical industry didn’t publish the cholesterol knowledge earlier? I would think it may be like a mega-movie release in Diwali time, the goal is to maximise profit.
In conclusion, what you summarised in terms of moderation in diet makes sense. More the merrier has been unfortunately, the approach of the past century, causing steep rise in obesity and sickness in the land of prosperity. Let us hope the ancient sattvik-endued Wisdom prevails in 21st century. For this, the lead must come out of Bharat. A step was taken on June 21, 2015.

Puran Sharma:
I did not have cholestrol/ sugar problem when I had heart attack in tennis court in 2008. I was put on Statin 40mg that was reduced to 10 mg. BARC doctor explained that it also helps in avoiding deposits in veins. I now regularly get pain in the biceps area. Presently it is tolerable. Could it be because of side effect of Statin? I underwent By-Pass surgery in 2008. My Cholestrol/ Sugar levels are under control.
Nandkishore Agarwal :
As per my understanding after my earlier discussions with our cardios, the muscle pain due to Statins is not restricted to only one set of muscles. It will effect a number of muscles in various parts of the body. The pain in biceps is probably due to some over stretched muscles in the specific area due to some physical stress or lifting some weights. By the way, are you playing tennis these days? In any case, even if you are playing, my suggestion would be to go on a slower pitch.
Best thing would be to consult our doctors to be sure about the cause.

Mohan Rao :
The link provides a Q&A about statins by the British Heart association.( The way I understood it was that it may be easier to deal with the side effects (such as muscle aches) rather than not taking statins if you have stubborn cholesterol problem. One should consult doctors who may monitor your cholesterol and adjust statin dose if the side effects are severe.

B.B Narang :
Following is some information on coenzyme Q10:
1.       It is a natural substance produced by body. It is also concentrated in many foods including nuts and oils. It has become a popular dietary supplement in some countries and is being used to maintain general health and treat heart diseases and a number of other serious conditions. Some clinicians believe it is so important for normal body functioning that it should be dubbed ‘Vitamin Q’
2.       It acts as a catalyst for metabolism for conversion of foods to energy .As it acts in conjunction with enzymes, it is named as coenzyme. It is found in every cell in the body and is especially abundant in the energy-intensive cells of the heart. Like vitamin E, it acts as an anti-oxidant to prevent cell damage from free radicals.
3.       It is claimed that it improves heart function, treat variety of heart problems, treat gum diseases, prevents some cancers, and protects nerves to slow down progression of Alzheimer and Parkinson disease and other age related degenerative changes.
4.       In some countries, doctors recommend coenzyme supplement after the age of 40.It is a complement to conventional medicines-not a replacement for prescribed medicines. The doctor only can decide about the dosage depending upon whether being taken for heart, Alzheimer or other specific complains.
5.       It is quite popular in advanced countries and available as an OTC supplement. In India it is not so popular because of high cost. Typically in Japan, 10% of adult population takes it regularly.
6.       Typically for any medicine or health supplements views/counter views keep on appearing based on experience of users. This is true for coenzyme Q10 also. It is found to be overall safe.
7.       CHSS doctors may not be prescribing it because it is a supplement not a medicine and also due to high cost.

S Nanda kumar :
Some  more information regarding COQ 10.
This is a vitamin supplement and supposed to improve  heart function. Commecial name of the tablet
is Ze - Q which has strength of 100mg.. one strip of 10 tablet cost Rs 420. Statin medicine depletes COQ in your body and therefore it is recommended.but not proved. Japanese are the biggest consumer and they think it improves longivity.

After my heart attack my ejection fraction ( efficiency of the heart ) was 50%. with this condtion you can run marathon, and your heart is very fit. but this factor fell down recently to 40% and no one knows the reason why it happened. To improve this fraction I am taking 2 or 3 tablets a week.This is recommended not by doctor ( some doctors agree ) but appeared in TOI health capsule!!! If Ejection fraction is less than 30 %, one may find brisk walking impossible. To reduce my BP, I am doing brisk walking every day hoping that ejection fraction does not fall below 30 %
B.B Narang 
I  agree with Sh. Nanda Kumar that Q10 increases efficiency of heart.In a major study carried out in Italy,2500 patients with congestive heart failure were given daily dose of 100 mgs of Q10 in addition to their other treatment.80% showed improvement and after taking it for 90 days,they had less ankle swelling and shortness of breath and began to sleep better. Q10 plays vital role in providing energy to heart muscle.
In some persons statins lead to reduction of Q10 in the body and also break down of muscles. Q10 help decrease muscle break down and reduce pain and discomfort.In some persons who take beta blockers for controlling high blood pressure,level of Q10 decreases leading to some complications.So they have to take Q10 as supplement.In Shri Puran Sharma's case muscle pain could be due to use of statin as 40 mg is rather high.

Following are the food items which contain Q10. Non-vegetarian foods have higher Q10 compared to vegetarian foods.Level of Q10 reduces if the foods are overcooked or fried.

1.Red Meat(Particularly heart and liver)
2.Oily Fish( Salmon, Tuna,Mackerel)
6.Grains(Whole grains, Wheat Germ)

As Shri Ghare stated in his mail that he was experiencing cramps in the legs due to use of statins. I have personal experience with cramps in the legs early in the morning.The cramps started in August and continued in September last year when I shifted to Delhi.I also got lower back pain.I  found that lack of calcium could be cause of cramps as well as backache.The doctor gave me vitamin D+ calcium and within 10 days cramps as well as backache disappeared.I got blood test done for vitamin D and it was 24 nmol/L which falls in deficient range of < 50(high risk of developing bone disease).For the last 2 month I am taking vitamin D once a week and will be getting blood test done next month to avoid excess of vitamin D.Sufficient range is 75-250 nmol/L(optimal concentration for maximal health benefit)
As stated in my earlier mails 80% of Indians have vitamin D deficiency but do not realize its importance until they get serious health complications.Body can not assimilate calcium from foods due to lack of vitamin D and calcium deficiency further aggravates the problems.

I had been taking statin 10 mg for the last 20 years as my cholesterol level continued to be high despite following Dr. P.T.V.Nair(BARC Hospital) advice to reduce cholesterol by diet control and long walks.I also consulted Dr. Vishwanathan,a very good cardiologist in Chembur who said that Indians in general have higher cholesterol levels despite all precautions.I have not experienced any side effects of statins. However the cardiologist in Delhi hospital has  reduced dose to 5 mgs daily and my cholesterol level remains within limit.

Anand Ghare :
Thanks Narang for sharing your personal experience in so much details. Vitamin D, especially D3 and B12 have suddenly assumed great importance in last few years. Pathological tests for their determination are very expensive and to my knowledge whoever has done this test is a candidate for their deficiency leading to their consumption as a routine. Mercifully they themselves are not very expensive. Most calcium tablets are fortified with vitamin D3 to facilitate the absorption of calcium by the body. However, excess of calcium or vitamin D is also harmful. So you get into the cycle of repeating the expensive  pathological tests again and again.
Some times I feel ignorance is really bliss. My parents and their ancestors never got their blood tested and lived a carefree life.

Nandkishore Agarwal :
Deficiency of Vitamin D3 is best made up from taking atleast 15 minutes of sunshine. It is very difficult to make up vitD3 from medicines although it is claimed that it can be so. It is also not true that anybody who goes in for pathological tests will end up with deficiency of D3. In my personal case, I had developed sciatica pain in my left leg. This was treated for quite some time but ultimately the pain in the calf muscles would not go. Doctors tried to make up the D3 with medicines. Pathlogical tests showed very satisfactory results for D3. Not getting relief, the wise doctor did not want to keep on stuffing medicines in the system. Instead, I was referred to Medical division who in turn after some trails sent me to Jaslok for Neuropathy tests. This is where it was revealed that the calf muscle pain  was due to peripheral and sensory neuropathy for which the line of treatment is totally different.
The whole idea in writing the above is that problems in the body at times may be due to some other reasons other than deficit of D#.

Reg CQ10: Most doctors in India seem to be totally unaware of this coenzyme. Particularly, when I specifically asked some of our cardio people in the hospital, they said it is not necessary and not required even to monitor it. Even some of the consultant (visiting vardiologists) also had the same opinion). Under the circumstances, irrespective of its cost, there being no guideline for its dosage for an individual, it becomes a difficult proposition to take it and derive its intended benefits.

Nandkishore Agarwal :
As per my recent discussions with our visiting Cardiologists on the issue of use of Statins for Cholestrol control, it was pointed out by him that a lot of reports are floating around on the subject. However, he opined that where ever a person has a history of cardiac problems like angioplasty or by-pass surgey etc, the use of Statins is lifelong and can not be compromised. The problems associated with it like muscle pain etc have to be compared with the intended benefits and accepted. Use of Statins in other cases where one is found to have high cholestrol, but otherwise normal with no cardiac history, has to be restricted as it really does not have much effect nor does it contribute in any way to control the cholestrol. This is primarily produced by the Liver in the human body which controls it also depending upon the requirement of the body.
Ravi Rustagi :
As a regular practitioner of yoga, and your senior mentor enjoying excellent health in retirement days, it is my request that you also consider introducing yoga/pranayam as part of your daily exercise regimen.

The following precautions and asanas would help in controlling cholesterol.
- Yoga is an alternate approach to health benefits, so you must consult your physician before giving up any current medication
- Learn yoga the right way and under the guidance of a trained yoga expert; mere bookish reading or watching TV is not a substitute to learning

- I regularly perform
 i)  kalpabhati pranayam (skull shining breathing)
ii) Shalabhasan (locust pose)
iii) Sarvangasan (shoulder stand)
iv) Paschimottanasan (two-legged forward bend)
v) Ardha Matsyenasan (sitting half- spinal twist)

- The above practices help increasing the metabolic rate by stimulating the abdominal organs and improves functioning of digestive track), plus cures constipation without any powder etc
- Lastly, healthy eating habits, and
- skipping one meal a week: fasting for body as well as mind(no food + no worry). Body and mind cooperate best.

These are doable by everyone, and with no side effects.
PLEASE START IN RIGHT EARNEST ON THE ABOVE MENU, till you can meet a trained yoga therapist.
Krishan Chopra :
In my case doctors recommended cq10 when the side effects of statin which I was taking for 20 years  ,became intolerable .It did not help me and  I  had to stop statins. I am now using herbal Medcines and my cholestrol levels are within limits.
'KM Shirolkar' :
I have seen many people claiming that , they perform either yoga or meditation. And still they face serious cardiac problems.
What i have observed that those who are only practising only meditation are more prone to such problem. Because to avoid angiana
, basically , what you require is an aerobic exercise.
AND generally most of the people avoid aerobics, saying it is not right at my age, it is very hectic, it can cause some serious damage etc. And resort to yoga or meditation as an easy way out.

Ok,  i understand that , and agree that yoga , pranayam and meditation can also keep  you fit.  BUT The question is how much of these exercise is done?
One should know that to derive a righe benifit, have an excellent physical fitness, you have to devote and practice it for minimum one and half of hour per day.
Now another observation: Most of the people who claim that they have an excellent knowledge of yoga and pranayam, and practice it regularly....... practice it for only 15 minutes to 40 min max....AND LAND INTO SOME OR OTHER HEALTH PROBLEM.
Because the duretion is not enough. Also they practice only preliminary asanas and pranayam.
How many of them can perform 'Shirsasan' ?
Haredly 1%.

Different benifits are derived from different practices. That means,  YOGA, PRANAYAM, AEROBICS AND MEDITION each happen to  provide a  different type of benifit.
Hence it also necessary to practice all type of exercises turn by turn to keep you absolutely fit.
B.B Narang :
Most of the age related/lifestyle health problems are caused due to following factors:
1.Lack of physical activities.Walking or physical exercises increase blood circulation to the organs and remove toxins from the body. Ayurveda methods like steam bath,massage and enema also remove toxins from the body.
2.Air pollution,water and food contamination also generate toxins in the body.
3.Taking junk foods instead of healthy foods on a regular basis loads the organs.
4.Not taking balanced diet like optimum mix of proteins-carbohydrates-fats causes variety of problems.
5.If there is family history of a particular disease,there are more chances of getting the disease.However the onset can be delayed if other precautions are taken.
6.Mental stress plays an important part.When a person is under stress,hormones are released from the body to counter the stress.However the hormones get converted into cholesterol and toxins.That is why meditation and breathing exercises  play an important role.
7.Taking drugs,tobacco,too much alcohol etc. loads the body organs beyond their capacity leading to accumulation of toxins.

So a single factor can not prevent a disease as toxins have to be removed using all means.A person gets in to health problem whenever acid-alkali ratio in the blood shifts in favour of acid.As the age advances capacity of organs to remove toxins reduces so one has to be more careful.

An example of longevity are the people in Hunza located in Gilgit-Baltistan area of North Pakistan.There are many centenarians and the reasons given for their long life is taking items like dried apricot and almonds,taking fresh air and exercise.They are example to the world for using preventive means for healthy lifestyle.

Continuing discussions on Coenzyme Q10,doctors in Government hospitals can not prescribe because these are considered supplements and are quite costly.Typically one capsule costs about Rs.24/- in India.However these are not so costly as the same will cost about 40 cents in U.S.Doctors in Japan,Italy,Sweden and Canada commonly prescribe Q10 to treat heart diseases.Typically in Japan 10% of adult population takes it regularly.I found that near my house all the chemists store Q10.That means that some of the private cardiologists must be prescribing Q10.
Ravi Rustagi:

We all agree that good health is top priority in life, more so in retirement years.
Recently, I was in India, and had an occasion to attend an annual event of Rustagi community in my hometown in Haryana. I was honoured with a momento.
One gentleman over 80 years in a wheel chair, said 'my two sons were letting me stay in their apartments turn by turn till my health was good. Forcibly, in this final stage, I have moved to live in my daughter’s home, while I had not had a meal in her home all my life. What a shame, he felt. He advised, we should read less, talk less about food, health, medicines etc but get on with exercise asap.

I have been doing regular yoga/pranayam/meditation lasting 90 minutes. I have tailored it myself according to what I have found suits me most, and based on the knowledge acquired from accredited teachers.
I am glad I am doing it intensively.
Sh Narang writes about the Baltistan-Gilgit mountain folks in N Pakistan. I am sure they do not have even 5% knowledge on health matters than most of us have, yet they enjoy 100 fold better health. Sometime, less is more There is a saying Aam khao, patte na gino.

Most well- retired people in America in my valve company plan to buy RV, tour around the country, spend lavishly, buy goodies, visit casinos and overindulgence for instant gratification.  I wish they would instead first join a yoga school after retirement. The fundamental benefit is not just better bodily health, but a better balanced life overall. You learn how to act better, how to think better, how to feel better, how to face difficult situations better, and finally self-realise, learn about your own self better. There is no substitute to yoga, believe me.

One good turn deserves another- good retired life is knocking please answer the door bell. Do not delay, or procrastinate. It is never too late. If you begin practise with just one of the 5 yamas, other 4 come by too.


Krishan Chopra :
Reg source of Chollest off. . I buy Cholest off  in USA and is made by an American company and distrbuted by   " Nature made nutrtional products " ( www.Nature Made .com ) Available in all Pharmacies cheaper In costco.I believe it can be replaced by Louki Juice.  

From: Rustagi
 I am pleased to put forth the following for your consideration, then you can decide yourself.
1. From Allopathic pills to Yoga/ meditation is like switching from Newtonian physics to Quantum physics, i.o.w. from atomic level of matter to subatomic energy/holistic level. It is not an easy switch, but it can be managed. These are drastically two different approaches. The western science is finally realising effectiveness of the new approach, as most Nobel prizes in sciences are now awarded on quantum physics and quantum mechanics. Coming from India, you are aware that energy related healing practices of acupressure, yogaasans, pranayams, meditation and prayer therapy have been performed since millennia in the East- China and India. There must be some truth in it.

2. You said that you have heard or known about people performing yoga/meditation, and still they face cardiac problems. Why don’t you believe there are many more cases of people who have successfully overcome cardiac problems? You will find such examples/differences in all branches of knowledge- nuclear energy for example. When Dr. Bhabha and Pt. Nehru decided in 1948 that India should embark in nuclear research, they must have received tons of opposition from local as well as overseas folks.
To cut the matter short, please do visit an accredited yoga therapy centre( I know a couple of such reliable and trustworthy places in India), talk to them and decide yourself. You do possess the wisdom of decision making, I have full faith in you and other retirees in our group.

3. My request is: we should get personally involved in whatever we do. Believing in hearsay is like idle curiosity. A nuclear professional can go above and beyond……….I attended a 31 days residential course in Santacruz east at The Yoga Institute. I do not suffer from any ailment, aches, pains/distress etc, yet I wanted to learn the techniques directly from the right teachers. I am glad I did. It was worth making a special trip from New York to Mumbai.

4. Chopraji, you will meet many more people in such places who are serious about their health, and have been cured already. Since you like to avoid junk food for your body, please also avoid junk thoughts for your mind. Then junk emotions and junk feelings …….A sort of chain reaction in healing the body, mind and spirit. I call this out-of-the-box approach, and not the traditional in-the-box approach.

Trust the above will serve a good start. Believe me, it is not too late yet.
One hour of Yoga, Pranaam, Meditation regime increases our life span by 7 hours- 700% ROI.