Friday 23 August 2024

Science behind Sins (Alchemy of Emotions)

 

Recently I came across a bunch of interdisciplinary papers in the field of psychology, anthropology and sociology.  Not the papers themselves, but a kind of synopsis. It was collectively called “Science behind Sins”. The actual papers would have been too heavy for me. The synopsis was also written in the form of layman’s questions and not too technical answers. That’s why I could retain my attention span to go through the pages.

The research is carried out in some American and European Universities. The research started in 1990, on some of our emotions / behavior such as pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth. Most of the religions and societies shun these emotions as sins, as sentiments that must be shunned lest one strays from the right path. The research is made to sound more authentic by use of brain maps, neuro-predictive models, behavioral manipulations, functional MRIs etc. Of course there is AI, that magic ingredient which make anything possible and with a boosted aura of flawlessness and hence acceptable.

The premise is if the emotions which are termed as sins are so bad for the individuals and the society at large how come they have escaped from the process of elimination in our evolutionary journey.

Some of the emotions like pride, lust, gluttony we have carried from our animal past. Many animals show their pride through postures and behavior. It is exhibited to get higher status, differential treatment and access to resources. Authentic pride is out of achievements and others are likely to recognize it through offering differential treatment. What is true in animal world is true in human societies. Hubristic pride is out of arrogance or inflated ego. People in power demand respect/differential treatment without any achievement / being able to provide valued service and are rejected and others show resentment and anger. Such a pride divides society. Pride becomes disruptive when it is through power / powerful allies / intimidation. We can find examples of these in todays domestic and international politics.

Attraction, desire, ambition, greed and envy is one path of emotions / behavior. Today’s advertising is focused on to make you feel inadequate without a certain thing. The Ads put you on an accelerated trajectory of envy. There are no emotions or behavior purely black or white. An ambition is treated as a desired trait, which motivates you to strive for achievements. But on its way, it may expose you to the temptation of unethical ways. It may take you to the brink of abysmal despair if there is a failure.

The recent Olympics tennis final between Djokovic and Alcaraz was a cliffhanger. When Djokovic won the match, he cried profusely without stop. Of course those were the tears of joy, but such display of emotions was not there in his previous victories on many stadia. It also indicates his fixation on the Gold Medal. It also shows the danger of deep despair / depression, he would have suffered had he lost the match. Was he greedy? Would he have been envious of Alcaraz, had he won the match? Alcaraz tried to hide his emotions, but still his eyes were filled and his gait showed his frustration. In the recent Cincinnati open match Alcaraz smashed the racket, is the frustration and envy taking toll on his mental balance and game?

. . . . 

It is important to fix what price in emotions / personal health / mental stability / family life you are ready to pay for the ambitions. There comes a point when the achievement is meaningless. In mountaineering we have a saying “Summit is optional, return to base camp, is mandatory.” But still, some cannot resist the temptation of siren’s songs on the Summit (when already the going is tough and dangerous), the feeling of achievement, the expected glory and fame, and pay with their lives, ending everything in dust.

RYA  20/08/2024

******

As usual you raise another subject of deep human interest- A peek into ourselves.

  I think you should have mentioned the specific origin of these studies. There are many available and it's a fashionable subject to write on any topic via.. "Science behind... so n so....."

   Our own saying "इंसान एक भावनाओ का पुतला है" perhaps sums up everything. Meaning that we all are just playful into the hands of our emotions.

  Another such study by "Discover Science" concluded that our whole brain is involved in such so-called "sins". There is no single area that can be controlled by drugs or electrodes to stop these emotions.

   I quote a part of it below:

"There is no sin center in the brain, no single node of fiendishness that we might be able to shut down with drugs or electrodes. With the advent of modern imaging techniques that peer into the brain as it functions, though, we at least gain some perspective on our bad habits. At the same time, we can indulge in another wickedly gratifying pastime: As other people misbehave, we can sit back and watch.

Lust : In the annals of sin, weaknesses of the flesh—lust, gluttony, sloth—are considered second-tier offenses, less odious than the “spiritual” sins of envy and pride. That’s good news, since these yearnings are notoriously difficult to suppress......"

 UQ: Fortunately these are not bipolar in nature. There is a gradation to them all. As we often see in sports, "Raw Power is of no use". It's only controlled and directed power that achieves the aim. Same is the case with our Emotions. Controlled and well directed these are a blessing and necessary to our aims and actions, but raw, uncontrolled and undirected they would assume the shape of sins.

  I believe so too. 

  It's also so beautifully annunciated in गीता by Shri Krishna to Arjuna in the battle field. Our scriptures have dealt with these mind games much more elaborately, completely and so early that the west are just touching upon now. 

The concept of "sin" needs to be understood too. Though Judaism, Christianity and Islam have defined it as edicts from their Gods (10 Commandments etc) that are to be followed for a peaceful propagation of a society. There are no such edicts in Hinduism. Instead we have defined the vices, like  काम, क्रोध, लोभ, मोह और मद, मत्सर etc. to be avoided, which again is a code to conduct for oneself and others.

  Any defiling of these edicts is a sin. Whilst the other religious edicts may have served the old systems of Society, our principles are universal in nature and time proof. Thanks

AM  21/8/2024

*****

Somehow this mail from RYA reminds me of Darwin’s  theory of Evolution.

Why evolution? It can be Extinction, too?

I  have often wondered   how such a common place observation and deduction  has come to stand  as a  famous theory!

We all try to adjust to our surroundings in life  or we perish.

Theories get support by observations for conformance to known laws or they also perish.

Change of state, meaning Evolution or Extinction,  can happen only with external FORCE,   is our knowledge of science.

Darwin has not postulated any such stimulant in his theory.

There are exceptions, they say cockroaches have defied this theory !

Natural changes are continuous, with no bump and not with unaccounted millennia of no activity.

 Such a gradual evolution would also have seen some form of gradual documentation ( by word or deed)  and not a suddenly assembled  dinoceros  here or a dug out Harappa there!  

Maybe the hiatus and bumps are Nature’s  turning points with its own impulsive forces of Earthquakes and Tsunamies, putting a question mark on Darwin’s theory!

May not apply to a different metaphysical world of emotions, conscience.  Here there is no evolution or destruction, only revolution from one state to another.

 Efforts are still being made to find that mysterious force to cause the change, but may be only in postulations.  

Darwin’s theory  pertains to the material world of matter. Matter is built of fundamental particles and tbeir interactions.

Similar constituents  are proposed in the metaphysical  world of brain , termed as neurons. They attribute some properties to neurons to explain  the different world of emotions . Some special neurons, endowed with some creative AI, try to wriggle out to causes change -  and evolution.

But all  only  theories , with no corresponding measure of success as  in the material world, not even being able to isolate the neuron ‘particle’. 

While the rest of the world was pursuing  MATTER,  the ancient sages of Bharat, pursued the MIND, with deep thoughts in isolation on the origin of Brahman,  or Self and the mind.

The findings were recorded as Upanishads and puranas and Ithihasas.,  much before the theory of evolution by the West.

The Dasaavtharam starting from   MATSYA avatar, ending in Krishnaavatar , do symbolically depict the evolution of MATTER. 

On the other side of MIND, there is no evolution only revolution of the three basic gunas.

Krishna articulated these findings in his Gita as the MIND  functioning  as the combination of three fundamental forces,    in different proportions.

Satwa     Calm and balanced disposition

Rajas     Emotion, passion, enjoyment , activity and movement in pursuit of these

Tamas      Laziness,  ignorance, inertia, smugness

 None of them is ‘good’   Or ‘bad’  in absolute terms but the combination in different proportions  constitute a personality.

The mythological avatars are about doing course correction  in the realm  of MIND,  when the two rajas and thamas apparently get the upper hand,  to tilt towards satwa, but never a lasting success,  calling for repeated Avatars!

So, there can be no EVOLUTION on the Mind- Emotions side, answer to RYA’s 

“The premise is if the emotions which are termed as sins are so bad for the individuals and the society at large how come they have escaped from the process of elimination in our evolutionary journey.”

AM has put it rightly    “Our scriptures have dealt with these mind games much more elaborately, completely and so early that the west are just touching upon now.”

KN     21/8/2024

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I did not give the reference of the papers, as I did not read those papers. But the names of some of the authors whose papers were discussed I can share with you for your further reading and research. 

On Envy, there were two, Jens Lange, University of Hamburg and Andrew Oswald, University of Warwick. On "Greed" there was Karlijn Hoyer, University of Amsterdam, Rahul Oka, University of Notre Dame (USA), Marcel Zeelenberg - Tilburg School of Social and Behavioral Sciences. For each so-called "Sins" there were at least two persons giving their findings. Sometimes it was brain maps giving the different brain regions with their names and which emotion / behavior what kind of chemical signal produces or which are regions excited by what chemicals etc, I simply ignored, being sure I would not be able to retain it. With you it may be a different case. 

Having an interdisciplinary approach to the study of any field is advantageous. It throws different facets of the issue for our view. Both of you have seen the subject from a moral / scripture oriented view. Natarajan would like to disassociate the animal kingdom from the higher world of metaphysics. The higher animals show all the emotions / traits which we classify as Satwa, Rajas and Tamas. We cannot deny that we have inherited much from our animal past. With our advances in cognitive skills we have been able to postulate an ideal mix of these गुण and try to propagate this idea through religion / scriptures / diktats.   KN rightly states that at one stage the humans have made a quantum jump in cognitive field, from then onwards there was no going back.  What caused it or was it a random chance or mutation or an external seeding is still a big mystery. 

****** 
The Greed is one thing most of us experience. When the temptation takes over the mind it morphs into greed. Today greed is associated mostly with money or wealth. In general terms it is accumulation of resources far beyond your needs. I think identification of greed, as we know it, would have happened far later in our evolutionary / civilizational history. But its earliest form of gluttony would have been there right from our animal stage. All animals know the resources / food is scarce and uncertain, so when you get a chance of abundance, hoard it for the lean period. There was no safer place than the belly. Even the body knows it is important to store fat for the lean period. Not only does the body store the fat quickly but it is reluctant to shed it.  All weightwatchers would vouch for it. Vinesh Phogat would have experienced it the hard way. This gluttony comes with associated risk of becoming vulnerable as the animal becomes sluggish, so a balance has to be achieved and one must know when to stop. So the animals would have realised that gluttony has to be moderated, it is not all bad or all good. Of course they did not issue any diktats. Those who realised it survived and others perished. 

In the film "Wall Street" the lead character famously says "Greed is good". What he meant was greedy people in their greed tend to be more creative and develop new products, hire more people and therefore they drive the economy. In short, Elon Musk types. Greed can definitely be a motivator to realise an ambition and drive people to go little bit further than they would normally go. But greed is more than this. Greed is an insatiable desire for more, and dissatisfaction with what you have. A clear formula for a miserable mind. 

Just as in the case of gluttony, people would have realized the need to strike a balance. And there were some who really could achieve this. They brought prosperity to wider society, of course they accumulated vast wealth. They were not just traders, they brought in new ideas for commerce and economics. They were able to govern such an economic activity better. In the middle ages it was realized and the rulers and administrators in Europe, came up with the concept of chartered cities,  which were governed by the commerce community. Even in India Chola and Chalukya kings had Nagarams and Patanams which were essentially run by the trading community. Its modern version is special economic zones. 

I never knew how economists look at greed and how it has shaped modern commerce. But the chartered cities or the Nagarams had to be under the hawk eyes of a worthy  regulator who was beyond the narrow view of money making. Where it failed the traders played a havok with the general population and the environment. 

****** 
A trivia: 
In the animal world actual fights are a last resort, as physical injury makes you vulnerable. Usually they try to show their superiority by various means and the one who is weaker leaves without a fight. You often see it in stray street dogs. You would rarely find a dog getting wounded in a fight. 
How do two vultures fight over the food? Vultures are known for their gluttony. The vulture who has not eaten for a long while parts his belly feathers, showing his shrunken belly and his readiness to fight till the end to get the food. The other vulture may leave the food to avoid the deadly fight. 

This information is also there in how animals use the gluttony for survival. 
RYA      21/08/2024

*****

What is sin?
A person A commits sin when A harms some person who has not harmed.A
But as per this defn all crimes will become sins. So society terms only those crimes as Sin which are against the moral standards of the society.
Regarding the subject of the thread I wish to say:
Almost all persons know what is( considered) bad/good still very often this knowledge does not decide their actions. Their actions are decided by their nature(swabhav) and the situations/ circumstances. Why there are so many types of swabhav are there is perhaps discussed in this thread.

PCD  22/08/2024
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Many new issues are raised but if I may react to some portions of the Sh K.N's and  RYA's posts quoted below: (hope these will clarify the main issue further)
Sh K.N. "Darwin’s theory  pertains to the material world of matter. Matter is built of fundamental particles and their interactions.    ..Similar constituents  are proposed in the metaphysical  world of brain , termed as neurons."

RYA: "We cannot deny that we have inherited much from our animal past. With our advances in cognitive skills we have been able to postulate an ideal mix of these गुण and try to propagate this idea through religion / scriptures / diktats. "  
UQ:

 There are many reports of the concepts of Human's superiority over the other species. Even though as per Darwin all living beings have a common origin.

  The Concept of superiority needs to be differentiated first. Is it as Individuals or as a Collective species, Cognitive or Physical?

  There are many traits where we are inferior. Bird flights, Fishes breathing in Water, Chimps muscle-fibres being much stronger than ours, some species can survive in extreme temperatures, hibernate for long periods, camouflage, generate electrical pulses, many more. We, infact, learn and copy them. 

  The mile stones of Humans' superiority are also clearly recorded and these basically started from and are based upon their "collective actions", "to live together and help each others of its kind", that none of the other species could equal or match in quality and quantity. 

  All other superior powers, like Communication, Harnessing of Fire, Sources of Energy, Agricultural Economy, Health Care, Exploiting Geological and Photosynthetic Energies, Discovering Force Multipliers etc emanated from our "Collective Actions" only.

   Undoubtedly,, our Cognitive Powers too have grown simultaneously as exemplified by the growth in size of our heads. But it's not clear which one preceded the other,... ease of life or growth of brain power, perhaps together. 

   Unfortunately, simultaneously we have collected all the negative traits too due to the fissures in these very collective traits, which have grown to the proportion of destroying ourself. 
AM     22/08/2024 

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Yes PCD, all crimes may have the roots in sin, but all sins may not be a crime. As for the orthodox definition of Sin, even to think or wish ill for the others is Sin. This is not a crime as per the jurisprudence. 

AM, our superiority over the animal world is as a species. A species which has collectively acquired so much power to decide on the destiny of the whole Living World wisely or otherwise. 
You say, and I quote "The mile stones of Humans' superiority are also clearly recorded and these basically started from and are based upon their "collective actions", "to live together and help each others of its kind", that none of the other species could equal or match in quality and quantity." 

I would like to point out these traits of "collective actions", "to live together and help each other" and learn through observations, rudimentary hygiene and health care etc we have acquired from our immediate ancestors in the animal world, the apes and monkeys. There would be a number of examples on the net and in books to show this fact. I am giving a link to a video, which I did about 20 years back, as my personal experience of this fact. It is a 6 minutes video. You may watch from 2:10 to 3.0 to see how a group of bonnet monkeys attend to sick and injured baby. Observe how the young monkeys are keenly observing the whole operation. The baby is inspected for parasites, his wound is cleaned, his health is accessed by urine and feces inspection.  Isn't that what we do and do it more efficiently today? 

Here is the link (The narration is in Marathi)

RYA
22/08/2024
***
I was a little puzzled by the title 'Science behind Sins' and looked for definition of a sin.
It is given as  '"an action or way of behaving that is not allowed by a religion." That means it is subjective, whereas Science is most secular. 
Further down the article mostly explains Emotions. While sin is about an action. It is difficult to control emotions, but you can control your actions.
In Hindu scriptures they talk of Kaayaa, Manasaa, Vaachaa. So even an evil thought is a sin. 

I have a very little understanding of Darwin's theory of Evolution (or elimination), but I never thought it accumulated only all the excellent qualities and rejected all bad qualities or weaknesses as the evolution progressed. Then the nature would have ended up in only a single strong and self sufficient species. The evolution has actually resulted in innumerable species and in each species, there are strongest to weakest individuals.
Why the evolution did not shed the bad emotions?  The question is similar to why did The almighty God create bad characters in the first place and then take the trouble of getting into a avatar to eliminate them? It resulted in an enormous amount of collateral damage. I think this question has been answered by many Pandits giving various theories.
Actually it may be more surprizing why there are selfless good people in this world? What prompts anyone to do a sacrifice?
Like Science behind the sins, some people might have found some Science behind nobility.
ABG     23/8/2024
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Yes,  So much of Enlightening  "Divergences" have come out along the way; -  hence   one approach (?)for   "Convergence" On "Science Behind Sins".

First If we Explore "Science"; -
It is Universal In Nature , irrespective of Time , Space and Causation ,- so long the "Cause "  remains the same,  "Effect"(Result) too has to remain  the same  with full repeatabilities for N no: of times, without fail. If not so , then it has to be Anything ,But  Science.

Next if "Sin" is examined. Broadly ,it  also  certainly has  universal nature and appeal ,but can it   be placed  in or around  the truthfulness of "Science" ?

Overall,  everywhere  it is taken  as an act by one or more ,which can cause harm or loss of any nature/kind  , to any one / group of living beings .

Some concessions { like  DCN/DCR in our parlance } are  extended ,if that  act takes place inadvertently,  unknowingly without any malafide intentions etc.
Of course, that "benefit of doubt"  can be extended  once only  in a given situation ,not again and again !

 Now a days {fashionable too} the  term "Law Of Karma" gets  used quite extensively  , without  adhering to   devoutness  for any particular religious scriptures ;- just to emphasis that such and such person did so much bad or good things to others ,resulting back into  something bad or good  happening  with the same person.
One school of thought says , - in absolute terms ,there is nothing like good or bad, - all relative positioning only, - someone's good has to be someone's bad and vice versa{ like all time Share Market Phenomena} ;- some  believers take it to even very higher levels,  up to next or successive birth/s !
There is one  school of thought  that ; just thinking of even worst { in any conventional scale}  kind in any  nature does not constitute any kind of  "Sin" , until and unless those are  accompanied by any kind of Action.

But ,if just  thinking bad can constitute "Sin" in the "Debit &  Credit" account of a person then in the reverse order , just  thinking "Good" can also   accrue some "Virtue" in the same account , - which could  be very convenient way for many  many "Aspirants" to acquire some "Inverse Of Sin",i.e:-"Credit Score" in this life itself,  for very effective  utilisasion in future  lives { if  possible  at all !}.

Since all these latter things can not be placed along the same row with Science ,- these Two can better  be considered as parallel lines , somewhat like railway tracks  , - can never attain  any meeting ground / point.

Btw,  I 've seen the 6 min watchful behaviour pattern of monkey video clip , portraying with , as usual good consistent photography /edit -  mixing , along with some Carnatic Instrumental background score.

AKG    23/8/2024

. . . .  . 

Regarding the present thread of Science and Sin,
only the observation  “The premise is,  if the emotions which are termed as sins are so bad for the individuals and the society at large how come they have escaped from the process of elimination in our evolutionary journey.” 
triggered my follow up on  the different topic of Darwin’s theory  and does not jell with whatever is discussed under the heading of Science and Sin.
I  am adding a few more footnotes to  this deviation to Darwin and suggest expunging the whole  from this thread , as a misfit! The rest will make some homogenous reading on the subject of  science and Sin.

Added the following 

May not apply to a different metaphysical world of emotions, conscience.  Here there is no evolution or destruction, only revolution from one state to another. So, there can be no EVOLUTION on the Mind- Emotions side, unlike in the materialistic parallel.

Darwin’s Theory is natural selection and adoption, automatically presupposes extinction of species not being able to adopt.  That is how the evolution of man from ape, sited as an illustration of Darwin’s theory, also entails the extinction of ape. 
 What did evolve from , say a dynoseros,  after the extinction of that form of life? No other illustration can be sited for Darwin’s theory except the solitary Ape - Man, making that as only a proposition, somehow had come to stay as a great theory of Evolution!

In contrast the Dasavatharam mythology, proposes evolution along with coexistence, not necessarily a fact  or an allegorical theory,  but could be simply fiction, but with such richness of imagination ! 

As I have once elaborated, the richness of Upanishads and mythology, gradually got effaced by getting shrouded with a stamp of a particular religion, and lost its rightful place in the world of Humanities and philosophy,  along with  Socrates, Plato, Aristotle , ...

K.N.     24/8/2024
. . . . . . . 

Dear AKG, we engineers tend to look at the term science from our familiar understanding of physical / chemical / nuclear angle. But the term is used in association with what we term as humanities such as Sociology (Social science), Politics (Political Science) and many more. When you say, “It (Science) is Universal In Nature , irrespective of Time , Space and Causation ,- so long the "Cause "  remains the same,  "Effect"(Result) too has to remain  the same  with full repeatabilities for N no: of times, without fail.” You are looking at closed and isolated systems. But in real world you would hardly find such systems, that is why you need the labs to recreate the exact environmental conditions to repeat the test results. When there are variables beyond your control, which would be the case in social sciences, you look for a pattern in response and not a mathematical answer like 2 plus 2 equal to 4.

The papers or rather the synopsis of papers I referred to are interdisciplinary. When the neuro scientists and bio-chemists map the brain and tell us that the “Feelings of deep attachment are run by the oxytocin systems” or “Romantic love, for example, comes from the ventral tegmental area (structure in the mid brain involved in reward, consumption, learning, memory and addictive behaviour) which is a tiny little factory near the very base of the brain. It spews out dopamine and leads to craving, focus and motivation”. This biological fact will be true for all humans, but the amount of dopamine released will depend on the cultural and social / societal background where the individual is raised. That is why the response to the gender issues (which are over heated today) from a person raised in orthodox patriarchal society of say Bihar and that raised in Kerala, where there are still traces of matriarchal society will be divergent. The papers say how the societies approach influences your feelings. The case of Chinese population is sighted. Some how Chinese are more ready to condone greed than the European..

For me the papers showed different angles to look at the so-called Sins. It introduced me to the term of Disaster Economy. This is run basically by the engine of Greed. To take our own example of our response to COVID, how did in a short time the supply chain of the plastic protective gear was established (which was charged a fortune), the fancy masks without meeting any standards flooded the market, how did the huge COVID isolation wards / hospitals (in open grounds like the Bandra Kurla Complex) came up, and functioned well to the satisfaction of the patients. One of the professors is studying these disaster economies to find what inputs it can give to improve the regular management / supply chain systems.

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Dear KN Sir, I beg to differ from your views on evolution and Darwin’s theory.

As per the theory early Humans and Chimpanzees have same ancestor apes. You know the whole story. Maybe you just overlooked it. In short, the picture gives the gist.
                                                                                                                                                                             


Chimpanzees were successful on trees whereas weak in muscle strength Australopithecus was forced to forages on ground and further develop his biped advantage. This new life style posed many challenges those individuals who had potential to adopt and circumvent the challenges achieved the next step in the journey to Sapiens. Chimps happily remained in trees and remained such without much progress.

The books of Richard Dawkins and Stephen Jay Gould tell a very engaging stories of the evolution.

You are wondering on who took over from Dinosaurs. When the huge animals were there, there were smaller animals of the similar genetic stock. They had slimmer bodies to hide from predators. They were the early reptiles. There was the evolutionary branch of crocodiles. They are seen today with not much difference.  When the dinosaurs perished these reptiles took over. They had already developed leaping capabilities and some gliding. They became the ancestors of birds. The anatomy of reptiles like lizards and birds is similar. We still have the flying Lizards; they are in fact gliders. In the Dandeli forest of Karnataka we can see them. They have developed a foldable skin membrane between their forelegs and hind legs. When they jump from high tree branch, they unfold the membrane like wings, which helps them to cover long distances in flight. I have seen them and photographed them while seating, but to shoot them in flight you need a high-speed camera.

RYA   24/8/2024

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RYA, Yes , Correct .
 On an extended thought process , I  also felt the missing gap ;-  was almost about to write as P.S.{ Post Script},- vis a vis  :-  this portion of "Sciences" -i.e Social Science , Behavioral  Science, Natural  {Biological} Science , Psychology etc.

In fact Neuropsychology ,which, I believe,  must be about finding of linkages &  detection of patterns from   Dopamine , Oxytocin kind of hormone related activities of a brain { human or animal} ,is also very much science and  scientists in that domain also use replication to ensure that their findings are accurate and reliable by repeating a method and finding with different spectrum of lives , at different occasions too .

Therefore ,this extended  Paradigm also very much gets included in the terminology of "Science".

The Evolution of species, as  unfolded meticulously ,  in this last mail is very much interesting to read and for an  increment in G.K.
Yes, I  have also seen Flying Lizard  & Snake too ,in Discovery / NG/ Animal Planet Channel , a few years back.

 AKG 
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Extremely  interesting discussion. But it appears that discussions are on the lines of present day definition of the science as enumerated by RYA. However if we define science as truth which does not change with time space and so on. Guru Nanak said "Aad Sach , Jogad Sach  Hai be Sach, Nanak ho see bi Sach."So this is more accurate definition of the science. There are physical principals of nature but there are subtle principals of nature as well .Man knows many and many are still hidden from man.
Further there is difference of studying the principles of natures by earlier man and present day man.Guru Nanak said "So hee Bramande ,So hee Pinde."Is not it that universe is made from let us call Boson or Higgs or energy ,so is the human starting from the same material .It is equally possible to study the principals of nature using our senses or something which persons like Krishana,Buddha ,Christ, Mohammed,Guru Nanak  Kabir and many more used to study the nature and created scriptures. As per the scriptures  the definition  of the Sin is ,An action which takes one away from the goal of achieving happiness.

KSC   25/8/2024
*****

Thinkers, mostly scientists, have given theories about why and how of evolution
.Evolution or  physical changes in creatures ,including extinction of species, is all done by the NATURE/GOD(N/G)  by rules/theories known only to N/G.
Since humans are within N/G their trying to find the rules of N/G is like one trying to see one' eyes by the one's own eyes !!!

PCD  25/8/2024
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Though we are segregating these mental aberrations like envy, pride, gluttony, sloth etc and their consequences as sins, ....that's good for their understanding and analysis, but these are interconnected, for one gives rise to the other.
  Also, like all other aberrations, Nature has it's own way of depreciating these. Too much of ambitions or losing temper results in a shortened life span by one or the other ailments. 

  As they say, Ants, the most harmless of species, have had the longest survival period as a species.
  So, one may indulge in Sins at his own perils. 

AKM  25/8/2024

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