All of us know a little about consciousness. To state in simple words, it is how much we instantly come to know or understand about what is happening around us. This ability starts building up from the birth of a child and is built up further as he grows and it gradually diminishes with ageing, but it also gets temporarily diminished in different degrees due to sleep, anesthesia, shock, injury, sickness, alcohol, drugs etc., even due to over-sized ego, ignorance or excessive concentration. People live in different states of consciousness from fully conscious to semi-conscious or unconscious. It is essentially integration of information with in the brain.
However, these states are qualitative and subjective. A post informing about some research being done on quantification and measurement of consciousness initiated a very stimulated discussion about consciousness taking it beyond the realm of medical science into the ionosphere of vedanta philosophy and back to the earth, encompassing wider areas such as knowledge, Gyan (ज्ञान), Vidya (विद्या), Soul (आत्मा) etc. While value addition diminished progressively, personal duels initiated by the debate continued even after somebody suggested a full stop. So I had to use the scissors of my judgement to chop of some portions and pick up the relevant and/ or interesting contents. Going through the chain of mails for this purpose again was quite interesting. Though a large number of comments were made, there was hardly any reference to the research work except in one or two. Perhaps very few friends might have taken the pains of opening the link to find out what it was about and in a way it defeated the purpose of the original mail. Still it was worth collecting these mails in a post to my blog.
The dictionary meaning of the word 'Consciousness' is as follows. This is to start from ground level.
"1. the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.
synonyms: awareness, wakefulness, alertness, responsiveness, sentience
2. a person's awareness or perception of something.
synonyms: awareness of, knowledge of the existence of, alertness to, sensitivity to, realization of, cognizance of, mindfulness of, perception of, apprehension of, recognition of."
Bringing Chit (चित् ) in the discussion (in place of consciousness), without specifically naming it, perhaps resulted in its getting so prolonged. It was still absorbing to read anyway.
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AM , Apr 10 at 5:47 AM
Sleeping-Awake-Unconscious-Coma etc are various states of Consciousness of our brains. Here is a theory to define it scientifically and also how to measure it. I found it interesting and hence share. What I could not find is, as to how it differs, or not, from the concept of Wisdom. A rather long one but still informative for those interested in AI n concepts of our Brains. A sample paragraph:
"The great strength of IIT (integrated information theory) is that it’s mostly consistent with common sense, in contrast to competing theories, which often propose deeply weird solutions (such as denying that we are conscious at all). IIT explains why an assault to the cerebellum, which encodes motor events, causes ataxia, slurred speech, or a stumbling walk but results in no diminishment of consciousness. That’s because the cerebellum, unlike the neocortex, doesn’t integrate internal states, even though it is home to 69 of the 86 billion nerve cells in the human body. IIT tells us that human beings in deep sleep or under general anesthesia aren’t conscious, because information integration has broken down. And IIT is consistent with how life feels: Consciousness is graded over a lifetime, blooming in an adult but withering with age, drugs, or alcohol, when our capacity to integrate information falters.
But the theory has its surprises too. Because IIT proposes that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe and that any system that integrates information is to some degree sentient, it follows that things that we do not think of as conscious at all, such as a light diode or the clock in a computer, will possess non-zero phi values, like temperatures just above absolute zero. This seems wrong, but Tononi promises that an upcoming paper will show that computers that are feed-forward systems, even artificial intelligences that employ deep learning, would not be conscious. “The phi of a digital computer would be zero, even if it were talking like me,” Tononi says. To make a conscious AI, Christof Koch speculates, would require a different computer architecture with feedback mechanisms that promote information integration, such as a neuromorphic computer."
https://www.wired.com/story/tricky-business-of-measuring-consciousness/
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RR- Apr 10 at 3:21 PM
It is interesting topic, yet measuring Consciousness sounds more like measuring infinity. Anything that can be measured, or metered, is called Maya, but it is not Consciousness. The latter can only be experienced thru personal meditation, devotion, right action, or right knowledge. Once experienced, you stop expressing it in terms of measuring, or quantifying it.
How can Love, Bliss, Anand, Pure Joy be measured? Some in India have called it गूँगे का गुड. Yet the friends, family, the world knows if you are experiencing it. It cannot be hidden. I would read BG, to understand what is SQ- Spiritual Quotient?
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ABG - Apr 10 at 5:51 PM
I may sound striking a discordant note, but as I have understood science, there is a basic contradiction in its approach to acquisition of knowledge as compared to that of most of the religions, more prominently Hinduism.
The preachers of these religions state that knowledge is infinite and you will never understand anything about it. So better ask them and believe them.
Scientists also know that the knowledge is infinite, but they try to acquire it bit by bit by their own efforts and put it to use in making life a little better.
I could not understand anything about measurement of consciousness from the paragraph quoted by Ashok and it did not inspire me to read the full article. However, it will be a great improvement if they can invent a better equipment than a breath analyzer. I wish we can test it on other intoxicating agents such effects of speeches given by Babas and Netas.
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RR - Apr 10 at 6:33 PM
ABG wrote it nicely "the way he understood it". Contradictions are expected, due to the infinite variety of knowledge, the natural attitudes of people and their longings. Yet I would differ, "that you will never understand anything about it”.
Firstly, understanding of this inner wisdom or Gyan is not the same as acquiring mundane school knowledge.
Secondly, one does not attach similar seriousness, similar commitment.
The beyond-mundane -Vidya would not have survived if it was irrelevant or un-understandable. More and more school kids in America are getting roped in from early years, as essential part of curriculum to stop them from drop-out, drugs, crime, wastage and absenteeism. Surprisingly, schools are interested in meditation just 20 minutes a day due to the economic benefits in the short term of billions of dollars each year. This is real science; Hell with the religion- is the new chant.
Friends, I do med myself, more and more and would urge more friends to do too. Enough of arguing. The spirit soul is starving for Faith, Hope and the Action.
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PDS - Apr 10 at 6:57 PM
I think wonderful discussion on 'Measuring Consciousness' leading to understanding that knowledge is infinite; do meditation; IIT etc etc.. Most of it went flying. In my humble opinion let us keep life simple. Let us not complicate life. Less we understand better for all. Lead a simple and happy life. People who have acquired deep Knowledge say 'Ignorance Is Bliss'. Measuring any aspect of consciousness is in the realm of experts. I salute to them.
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RA - Apr 10 at 11:29 PM
I agree with ABG. It is the spirit of inquiry and the desire to make the unknown understandable is important. When we accumulate knowledge over generations we try to tag some (now) common knowledge as mundane and some at higher level knowledge or wisdom or Gyan. We forget that what is termed today as mundane was once cutting edge wisdom.
The American kids getting engaged to meditation for some gains (worldly gains?) has no relation to what you are saying.
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K.N - Apr 11 at 12:37 AM
The complex materialistic analysis of the functioning of the brain through the divisions we make of cerebrum, cerebellum and medulla oblong gata, conceived as a central computer controlling the millions of cells, giga bytes we may call them, is quite different from the abstract conception of knowledge and wisdom, as I understand.
I do not know whether there can be any connection between these materialistic and abstract aspects, except that the later is some inexplicable product of the farmer.
I guess AM is after the first.
I guess ABG is referring to the unraveling of knowledge for our material comfort., usually attributed to Science.
It is again doubtful whether this materialistic attributes have any relation to the abstract attributes like happiness, contentment, peace of mind.
Maybe this abstract aspect is referred to as wisdom, professed to be guided by religion.
In spirit, yes, but in course of time degenerated by dogmas, outcome being exactly the opposite of the objective., leading to the conclusion of ABG.
But the blossoming of wisdom is from PDS, ‘why worry’.
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ABG - Apr 11 at 9:12 AM
The title "Measuring consciousness" made me think that it is a scientific effort. I only expanded it to acquisition of "knowledge", the purpose of Science. I have taken meaning of word "knowledge" as it is in English language.
RR wrote about infinity of ज्ञान, (Gyan) supposed to defy every attempt of containing within any boundaries, supposed to be obtained by a few great souls chosen by the Almighty.
I still think the article is about Science, some may downgrade it as 'materialistic' if they like it.
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AM - Apr 11 at 9:50 AM
What a wonderful experience sharing a thought process is. I would have remained like a frog if all the connotations of Conciousness per se as brought out by ABG/KN/RR/PDS/RA were not correct to varying extent. I fully agree that Conciousness has infinte dimensions/no upper limit, limited only by the concepts, imagination n capability of the thinker. That's what the Lord showed to Arjuna as a "Virat Roop" or our sages who attained "Divya Darshana" .
Whilst there is no higher limit, but I think there is a lower limit below which the mind shuns Conciousness. It may be something akin to the sudden lighting of a tube light. The medicine men are after that stage to understand Coma, Sleep, Subconscious etc. We all know the affliction of Stephen Hawking , fully Concious but fully incapacitated and many other cases of fully capacitated but unconcious. I think that was what the article was all about.
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K.N - Apr 11 at 10:32 AM
I believe Science is generally about materialistic things, some hypothesis to explain some things or phenomena being called as theories, bordering on philosophy.
Philosophy, I believe, is about non-materialistic things, abstract or metaphysics being used for want of a better term. Science and the real sense of religion are supposed to meet these two aspects, with no downgrading or upgrading involved.
Since the topic has not yet died, I may advance some more drivel!
The wonderful power plant of nature, that of the human brain, is governed by two layers.
The control function, based on information collected and transmitted by numerous sensory cells, a conscious action of processing and issuing commands, is that of ‘the brain’., falling under ‘voluntary action’
The second layer, falls under ‘involuntary action’, is governed by spinal cord, connected to and forming an important part of, the central brain, but yet in a different location.
When the brain ‘sleeps’, an unconscious state, this layer takes over essential control, with involuntary action., as in the quick and involuntary pulling up of the hand or leg when the mosquito bites a sleeping person., bypassing the brain action.
A subject which very much fascinated me in my school days, with half baked impression still left..
One micro part of the brain, called neurons, are endowed with ‘radiating properties’, as per present day discovery. meaning transmission without physical connection, explaining the mystery of ‘action at a distance’, of mind power.
Like the unopened Tiruvanandapuram temple dens, Nature may still hold quite a lot of unsuspected treasures!
Hope the flow continues from brain, on brain, in the science or abstract plains!
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GRS - Apr 11 at 11:17 AM
Very interesting reading. KN’s posting brings out the hard fact, which I was not “conscious”. Even reactor was first “built” by nature at Gabon Africa, where it operated with a high capacity factor for thousands of years. I now see that two independent control systems already existed in humans ( and animals?). Also there is no sharing between these two human system until Final Acting Elements. May be there are other areas in nature which can yield “gyan” to designers.
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pd - Apr 11 at 12:41 PM
Everybody is talking about what conciousness is and what it is not. But I want to know why it is so. Any answers?
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RA - Apr 11 at 12:45 PM
There is no denying that the true wisdom / supreme consciousness / Virat Roop / Divya Darshan, call it by any name, is boundless. Human ignorance may be an ocean but still bounded. All human efforts (and ours in this group too) are to shrink the borders of the ocean of ignorance, kind of reclaiming knowledge form the ignorance. Does it make any difference to the boundless knowledge / consciousness? No. BUT it make a huge difference to our vision / to our understanding of the true nature of the universe. We peel of one more layer of unfounded fear / unreasonable dogma / romanticized falsehood.
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AG - Apr 11 at 3:39 PM
Literally , in medical parlance {scientifically}, the " Measurement of Consciousness " is done by EEG.
The way , cardiac activities are seen on ECG monitors and very regular patterns with up/down & in between straight , indicates normal functioning of heart pump.
Similarly, Regular pulse patterns on EEG is supposed to show normal electrical activities ( level of consciousness) on different points on brain.
Whether a person is in sleep, wakeful state , inebriated, coma etc.every minute details can be monitored on EEG screen.
When all lines fall flat, - no consciousness - known as "Brain Dead".
Semi/Un/ Consciousness ,- all are in the domain of time, space & causation {earthly existence), but the next higher up "Super Consciousness" seems to be altogether different ball & game , very very rare personalities only may reach there.
But almost all present day Babas/Gurus try to kick the ball through that window of opportunity
To run their show/business.
- Just some random thoughts, nothing more .
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K.N - Apr 11 at 7:00 PM
I treat this group as a sort of technical and philosophical journal, an assembly of fairly intelligent people, hard to get anywhere and love to do loud thinking with.
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RV - Apr 11 at 7:18 PM
Consciousness is perhaps measurable only so long as it occupies and manifests in the equipment it has chosen.
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RR - Apr 12 at 4:43 AM
PDS's message is amusing indeed, like the outdated Charvak philosophy.
I had a neighbour in the college hostel in Delhi Engineering college in 1955. His grandma showed up suddenly from Gwalior to personally check the welfare of her ‘baby boy’ who had never been away out of Gwalior home. I remember, we were returning from the smithy shop practice. Grandma looked at the ‘baby’s’ tender hands full of blisters. She fired the workshop superintendent for his cruelty and would you believe she took the student away- just to keep her baby’s life simple? The precious seat remained vacant the rest of the year.
Everyone has a message to deliver, based on his or her personal experiences.
While Life must be simplified, that is what engineering and technology all about. Yet In our craze for simplicity, we cannot afford to be simplistic or simpletons.
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RR - Apr 12 at 6:04 AM
ABG made interesting observation on Gyan, as applicable in modern India..
It is true only a few can attain the end goal, but everyone is entitled to make the attempt. The quality can come only out of the quantity.
Remember the famous Bell Curve in Statistics course. The image below is taken from Google.
The curve shows the following interpretation in respect of Knowledge-
Some are ignorant/confused (the left side trail)
Some are knowledgeable (the right side trail)
Majority are in between, or struggling(the central hump).
Progress or process improvement means the curve is gradually skewed to the right, as more and more members in the control group are participating.
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AM - Apr 12 at 6:55 AM
Appears, there is some ∆ room left to push in a few more thoughts.
The heading itself appears to be misleading, for, to measure any thing, lends itself to a 'physical quantity'. It might better have been "Menifesting Conciousness" or a similar one.
There are many non physical quantities, even in Science, that are only menifested in theory, but not (as yet) physically experienced or measured e.g the black holes, the dark matter, the great subatomic forces, even the gravity waves till a few years back, quantum mechanics etc and I am not counting the omnipresent biological ones, like the greatest of all mystries "what's Life, the Concept of God, what's the purpose of this Creation etc etc?".
So,... it's a 'trap' to muddy the waters when we push this item towards a .... "physical quantity" or 'how it matters' like thoughts .
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AG - Apr 12 at 9:36 AM
Don't know : Right or wrong.
It appears, the more appropriate word would have been :
"CONSCIENCE /CONSCIENTIOUSNESS", - which, not being a physical parameter, cannot be visualised by any method or instrumental at all.
- Just an attempt, nothing more.
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BM - Apr 12 at 11:08 AM
Consciousness is a qualitative term. It is possible to experience it, but not possible to measure it.
As RR Compares Consciousness with infinity (equivalent to the Level of GOD CONSCIOUSNESS :- say 7th Level ) महात्मा बुद्ध, गुरू नानकदेव जी lived life on the 7th level of consciousness.
All saint's also lives life on the higher level of consciousness than other peoples.
In my opinion all great scientists also lives life on higher level of consciousness than ordinary peoples. Because God selected that body of scientists for new creation eg scientists 'Arya Bhatt, Edison etc etc.
We all are born as Human beings, it is possible for us to improve our qualities.
If we are able to increase our qualities in the same ratio our consciousness will be increased.
So being human it is very much in our hand to increase our level of consciousness and established in Samadhi (समाधि)
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AM - Apr 12 at 12:55 PM
Appears, there is some ∆ room left to push in a few more thoughts.
The heading itself appears to be misleading, for, to measure any thing, lends itself to a 'physical quantity'. It might better have been "Menifesting Conciousness" or a similar one.
There are many non physical quantities, even in Science, that are only menifested in theory, but not (as yet) physically experienced or measured e.g the black holes, the dark matter, the great subatomic forces, even the gravity waves till a few years back, quantam mechanics etc and I am not counting the omnipresent biological ones, like the greatest of all mystries "what's Life, the Concept of God, what's the purpose of this Creation etc etc?".
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AKS - Apr 12 at 1:28 PM
I think conscious and consciousness are two different thing.
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RA - Apr 12 at 5:48 PM
It seems we are wandering all over the field of consciousness. Starting with trying to measure the consciousness, to discouraging measurement of an infinite, to encourage only its experience, to distinguishing its measurable / gradable aspect, to recognising superlative grades of "C" (randomly at 7) granted by the divine grace to the accepted great achievers. The reason is the subject is truly fascinating, complex and hence challenging.
AM gives a list of nonphysical entities which so far are intractable / discernible including "C", one among them is "What is Life".It reminds me of the lecture series delivered at Dublin University, about 75 years back by the famous physicist Erwin Schrodinger, yes the same with the famous cat. With care he has avoided the singularity of origin of life and the backlash of the mighty church. In four lectures he painted the complexity of biological systems in a way which was fascinating to the students of other branches of science. That really opened the flood gates of interdisciplinary research. Not only the understanding of biological functions and processes made a quantum jump, it enriched the other branches of science. AND STILL WHAT IS LIFE IS INTRACTABLE.
In short there is no reason to give up a hard problem as understanding or measuring "C" , there could be other side benefits spinning out of it. I think our group understands this instinctively and is carrying on every which way.
One more thing. Does our group has "C"? Because as per the article referred by AM
" Other things that have zero phi (no "C"), according to Tononi, include collectives of sentient individuals, such as corporations or the United States"
We often talk of collective "C" of the society or nation etc is that of a non existent thing? Or is it the part of the same complexity and intractability of big "C"?
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RR - Apr 12 at 8:29 PM
Worrying is not the correct verb. Nothing substantial is ever achieved by worrying, nor by ignoring or burying the head in sand.
The correct verb may well be to understand for yourself intellectually through self-study, and/or friendly help and face the issue responsibly and courageously. Finally eat the Prasadam, to experience the grace and bliss.
Realising Consciousness is whole nine yards of spiritual technology. Once you pick up the baton on the field, you must run the full length. No short cut, no dropping out.
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AM - Apr 12 at 9:45 PM
Reading RA's thought provoking questions in his last paragraphs, some out of the box thought occured to me.
Is the "Concept of Conciousness" some how representative of the "Concept of the Universe"??
Both seem to be full of comlexities, diversities, surprises, unlimited in dimensions, ever expanding etc....
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K.N - Apr 14 at 11:46 AM
Just some stray thoughts to keep the light, humorous, responsibly responsive, flow of mails in our group!
Co ordinates are relative and the same remark may have different connotations from different coordinates.
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RR - Apr 14 at 2:43 PM
An interesting conclusion.
-There are Different interpretations of the word Consciousness.
- Yet it is simple to argue that for anything to make sense, must be measurable.
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K.N
On rereading, I still feel that we are dealing with two very different things. The author of the article ‘link’ed by AM also is not clear in his perception. On a purely scientific topic ( in the medical field) about declaring the state of a patient( or a normal being) in the scale of consciousness and unconscious state, (as in a patient being medically shifted from a conscious to an unconscious state as part of a medical procedure), the confusion was introduced by bringing in scientifically unconnected topic of Wisdom and Knowledge. One may note that this was done only in the first/second para and does not figure in further development of the scientific quantification of the unconscious state, medically.
Our wise members also caught this parenthetical reference , opening up discussion on this non-medical, abstract topic ., and tried to connect the topic of measurement to the impossible, infinite, abstract Wisdom and Knowledge, not the topic dealt with in the article.
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AkS - Apr 14 at 8:20 PM
Topic can become even more interesting if the conscious can be defined or elaborated. Voice if conscious is very often used statement for achieving multiple objectives.
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RR - Apr 14 at 9:27 PM
Came across some witty and wise tales….
1. One passenger to another, "I always carry two books on flights. This is the book #1, I am going to read, and book#2, in case book#1 is terrible".
Lesson: One cannot avoid the terrible ones, or scams, or cheating or stealing, or lying that is going on. Read only, or spyware may be a solution. Mindful Choice making, and Self-care is another, or the better way.
2. Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on teaching at Stanford, “ It is not my job to make you comfortable. Actually, it is my job to make you uncomfortable”
Lesson: Pain is the unavoidable price of freedom, Freedom from pain can come from spiritual growth and deep personal transformation. Each person has his/her own recipe. No need to argue, or to block the outside by living in a glass box.
We have only two hands. Learn to Use these to win over your own inner chatterbox (चित्त वृत्ति), not to fight the crowd-at-large outside. Hats off to Ms. Rice.
3. Fred: What’d you get your wife for Christmas?
Ned: She told me,” Nothing would make me happier than a diamond necklace.
Fred: So you got her diamonds.
Ned: No, I got her Nothing.
Lesson: The IAS type answer generally wins in materialistic life. One must, however be careful in applying the same lesson to non-materialistic issues.
4. The timeless message- Be Simple and Stay positive... Thanks to PDS
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pd - Apr 14 at 9:34 PM
To whoever can help
KINDLY give definition (in 1/2/3 lines ) of
1) Consciousness
2) Atma
-The jigyaasu
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RR - Apr 15 at 7:32 AM
According to Indian Vedanta philosophy,
1. Brahman(ब्रह्म) is the absolute non-dual Supreme Reality, aka the cosmic Self, or pure Consciousness.
2. Atman (आत्मन) is the individual Self, aka the pure Self is eternal/immortal and its essential nature is 3-fold: existence(सत्), consciousness(चित्) and bliss(आनंद).
IOW, Consciousness or Knowledge of the Self leads to Bliss (सच्चिदानंद).
Attaining Bliss, through Self-realisation is the true goal of human life.
3. There is a perfect identity between the individual Self and the cosmic Brahman. The difference or duality between the two is simply illusion.
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AM - Apr 15 at 7:57 AM
All this Vedanta philosophy about "Aatma", Brahma and "Parmatma", is it just just a nomenclature or a definition or an explanation about an otherwise unknown entitity? Does it have some origin or ending or a foundation or a menifestation, either in the physical or in a natural format? We know it is eons old and is our heritage but since then our knowledge about nature and universe has grown manifold. And I am sure even it's writers did not proclaim it as absolute wisdom n or truth that it can't be updated or challenged.
As, without any such basic links now, it tentamounts to an "Alice in Wonderland" like scenario for the uninitiated. Sorry for the rebuttal but this may be the feeling of all of us except the proponents.
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K.N - Apr 15 at 8:57 PM
For the complex topics of Brahman, atma, karma and tbe like, a devouted scholar would go for textual treatments, or the gigabytes of internet not to this group.
That is why Forwards and Links for the same referred to in this group, piously, seemed to.me to be a bit odd.
Viewed from a different angle , possibly with a new glossary, possibly with some different interpretations, possibly with awe from a historical perspective, may be different., and has been tried in our group.
But, converting this into a dogmatic Veda class is a bit difficult to take., as expressed typically by AM
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MP- Apr 15 at 9:07 PM
Too much it is, I thought KN appoint a committee for R&D and come out with a physical instrument as spirituality gives different perspectives -
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RR -Apr 16 at 9:19 AM
AM's inputs and comments are appreciated. I am glad you are asking valid questions to ascertain their use in the 21st century.
Apart from short definitions in 3 lines, requested by pd, the following explanation may help in further understanding the relationship between Atman, Brahman and Consciousness
1. Mind-Body-Breathing problem
A material scientist, particularly trained in the Western country (India may also be heading in that direction), generally takes a solid, liquid or gaseous object, analyses it physically and chemically, to manipulate matter and the measurement. That is enough to establish the material existence. A human being is, however not primarily physical. The research is further complicated when mind and breathing enter into the picture. I have met a fellow scientist, saying “Either you are breathing, or not breathing. If you are breathing then everything is alright. If you are not breathing then obviously you are dying. It is that simple, isn’t it?” A yoga teacher trained in India or in the East would however, say it is a foolishly naive approach.
2. Science of Pranayama
At the Institute of Yoga in Santacruz east Mumbai, the library has several treatise books on Breathing which were written centuries ago. In India, breathing has always been an extraordinary science. The Sanskrit word for breathing is Pranayam, consisting of three sub-words: Pra(first unit) + na(energy)+ ayama (manifestation, expansion and contraction).
In order to understand the Cosmic aspect of God, the student is first trained to balance his breathing, calm his nerves and control his mind. Control of mind is a pre-requisite to the ultimate subjugation of the cosmic merging of individual soul Aatman with the cosmic soul Brahman.
3. The current research in the West is surely seized with the benefits of this Upanishadic wisdom, and they are trying to prove it in their labs. They are awed how this was once discovered by Rishis of India, without modern labs, which is truly mind-boggling. It is predictable that Nobel prizes of the near future will be in the realm of Consciousness.
4. Conclusion: My personal view point is this: West was kept bereft of this super science of Consciousness during 200 years or more of British rule. The schools and Universities in America will take time, but sincere efforts are going on. This is a good news.
The bad news is- It is not a simple matter. Believe it or not!
Are the schools and colleges in India similarly equipped? Swami Vivekananda had remarked more than a hundred years ago, 'renaissance of Yogic science will take place in America’. Are the retired scientists leaving such legacy for the new generation, beside the wealth, home or will.
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The last word is not yet written!
However, these states are qualitative and subjective. A post informing about some research being done on quantification and measurement of consciousness initiated a very stimulated discussion about consciousness taking it beyond the realm of medical science into the ionosphere of vedanta philosophy and back to the earth, encompassing wider areas such as knowledge, Gyan (ज्ञान), Vidya (विद्या), Soul (आत्मा) etc. While value addition diminished progressively, personal duels initiated by the debate continued even after somebody suggested a full stop. So I had to use the scissors of my judgement to chop of some portions and pick up the relevant and/ or interesting contents. Going through the chain of mails for this purpose again was quite interesting. Though a large number of comments were made, there was hardly any reference to the research work except in one or two. Perhaps very few friends might have taken the pains of opening the link to find out what it was about and in a way it defeated the purpose of the original mail. Still it was worth collecting these mails in a post to my blog.
The dictionary meaning of the word 'Consciousness' is as follows. This is to start from ground level.
"1. the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.
synonyms: awareness, wakefulness, alertness, responsiveness, sentience
2. a person's awareness or perception of something.
synonyms: awareness of, knowledge of the existence of, alertness to, sensitivity to, realization of, cognizance of, mindfulness of, perception of, apprehension of, recognition of."
Bringing Chit (चित् ) in the discussion (in place of consciousness), without specifically naming it, perhaps resulted in its getting so prolonged. It was still absorbing to read anyway.
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AM , Apr 10 at 5:47 AM
Sleeping-Awake-Unconscious-Coma etc are various states of Consciousness of our brains. Here is a theory to define it scientifically and also how to measure it. I found it interesting and hence share. What I could not find is, as to how it differs, or not, from the concept of Wisdom. A rather long one but still informative for those interested in AI n concepts of our Brains. A sample paragraph:
"The great strength of IIT (integrated information theory) is that it’s mostly consistent with common sense, in contrast to competing theories, which often propose deeply weird solutions (such as denying that we are conscious at all). IIT explains why an assault to the cerebellum, which encodes motor events, causes ataxia, slurred speech, or a stumbling walk but results in no diminishment of consciousness. That’s because the cerebellum, unlike the neocortex, doesn’t integrate internal states, even though it is home to 69 of the 86 billion nerve cells in the human body. IIT tells us that human beings in deep sleep or under general anesthesia aren’t conscious, because information integration has broken down. And IIT is consistent with how life feels: Consciousness is graded over a lifetime, blooming in an adult but withering with age, drugs, or alcohol, when our capacity to integrate information falters.
But the theory has its surprises too. Because IIT proposes that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe and that any system that integrates information is to some degree sentient, it follows that things that we do not think of as conscious at all, such as a light diode or the clock in a computer, will possess non-zero phi values, like temperatures just above absolute zero. This seems wrong, but Tononi promises that an upcoming paper will show that computers that are feed-forward systems, even artificial intelligences that employ deep learning, would not be conscious. “The phi of a digital computer would be zero, even if it were talking like me,” Tononi says. To make a conscious AI, Christof Koch speculates, would require a different computer architecture with feedback mechanisms that promote information integration, such as a neuromorphic computer."
https://www.wired.com/story/tricky-business-of-measuring-consciousness/
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RR- Apr 10 at 3:21 PM
It is interesting topic, yet measuring Consciousness sounds more like measuring infinity. Anything that can be measured, or metered, is called Maya, but it is not Consciousness. The latter can only be experienced thru personal meditation, devotion, right action, or right knowledge. Once experienced, you stop expressing it in terms of measuring, or quantifying it.
How can Love, Bliss, Anand, Pure Joy be measured? Some in India have called it गूँगे का गुड. Yet the friends, family, the world knows if you are experiencing it. It cannot be hidden. I would read BG, to understand what is SQ- Spiritual Quotient?
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ABG - Apr 10 at 5:51 PM
I may sound striking a discordant note, but as I have understood science, there is a basic contradiction in its approach to acquisition of knowledge as compared to that of most of the religions, more prominently Hinduism.
The preachers of these religions state that knowledge is infinite and you will never understand anything about it. So better ask them and believe them.
Scientists also know that the knowledge is infinite, but they try to acquire it bit by bit by their own efforts and put it to use in making life a little better.
I could not understand anything about measurement of consciousness from the paragraph quoted by Ashok and it did not inspire me to read the full article. However, it will be a great improvement if they can invent a better equipment than a breath analyzer. I wish we can test it on other intoxicating agents such effects of speeches given by Babas and Netas.
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RR - Apr 10 at 6:33 PM
ABG wrote it nicely "the way he understood it". Contradictions are expected, due to the infinite variety of knowledge, the natural attitudes of people and their longings. Yet I would differ, "that you will never understand anything about it”.
Firstly, understanding of this inner wisdom or Gyan is not the same as acquiring mundane school knowledge.
Secondly, one does not attach similar seriousness, similar commitment.
The beyond-mundane -Vidya would not have survived if it was irrelevant or un-understandable. More and more school kids in America are getting roped in from early years, as essential part of curriculum to stop them from drop-out, drugs, crime, wastage and absenteeism. Surprisingly, schools are interested in meditation just 20 minutes a day due to the economic benefits in the short term of billions of dollars each year. This is real science; Hell with the religion- is the new chant.
Friends, I do med myself, more and more and would urge more friends to do too. Enough of arguing. The spirit soul is starving for Faith, Hope and the Action.
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PDS - Apr 10 at 6:57 PM
I think wonderful discussion on 'Measuring Consciousness' leading to understanding that knowledge is infinite; do meditation; IIT etc etc.. Most of it went flying. In my humble opinion let us keep life simple. Let us not complicate life. Less we understand better for all. Lead a simple and happy life. People who have acquired deep Knowledge say 'Ignorance Is Bliss'. Measuring any aspect of consciousness is in the realm of experts. I salute to them.
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RA - Apr 10 at 11:29 PM
I agree with ABG. It is the spirit of inquiry and the desire to make the unknown understandable is important. When we accumulate knowledge over generations we try to tag some (now) common knowledge as mundane and some at higher level knowledge or wisdom or Gyan. We forget that what is termed today as mundane was once cutting edge wisdom.
The American kids getting engaged to meditation for some gains (worldly gains?) has no relation to what you are saying.
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K.N - Apr 11 at 12:37 AM
The complex materialistic analysis of the functioning of the brain through the divisions we make of cerebrum, cerebellum and medulla oblong gata, conceived as a central computer controlling the millions of cells, giga bytes we may call them, is quite different from the abstract conception of knowledge and wisdom, as I understand.
I do not know whether there can be any connection between these materialistic and abstract aspects, except that the later is some inexplicable product of the farmer.
I guess AM is after the first.
I guess ABG is referring to the unraveling of knowledge for our material comfort., usually attributed to Science.
It is again doubtful whether this materialistic attributes have any relation to the abstract attributes like happiness, contentment, peace of mind.
Maybe this abstract aspect is referred to as wisdom, professed to be guided by religion.
In spirit, yes, but in course of time degenerated by dogmas, outcome being exactly the opposite of the objective., leading to the conclusion of ABG.
But the blossoming of wisdom is from PDS, ‘why worry’.
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ABG - Apr 11 at 9:12 AM
The title "Measuring consciousness" made me think that it is a scientific effort. I only expanded it to acquisition of "knowledge", the purpose of Science. I have taken meaning of word "knowledge" as it is in English language.
RR wrote about infinity of ज्ञान, (Gyan) supposed to defy every attempt of containing within any boundaries, supposed to be obtained by a few great souls chosen by the Almighty.
I still think the article is about Science, some may downgrade it as 'materialistic' if they like it.
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AM - Apr 11 at 9:50 AM
What a wonderful experience sharing a thought process is. I would have remained like a frog if all the connotations of Conciousness per se as brought out by ABG/KN/RR/PDS/RA were not correct to varying extent. I fully agree that Conciousness has infinte dimensions/no upper limit, limited only by the concepts, imagination n capability of the thinker. That's what the Lord showed to Arjuna as a "Virat Roop" or our sages who attained "Divya Darshana" .
Whilst there is no higher limit, but I think there is a lower limit below which the mind shuns Conciousness. It may be something akin to the sudden lighting of a tube light. The medicine men are after that stage to understand Coma, Sleep, Subconscious etc. We all know the affliction of Stephen Hawking , fully Concious but fully incapacitated and many other cases of fully capacitated but unconcious. I think that was what the article was all about.
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K.N - Apr 11 at 10:32 AM
I believe Science is generally about materialistic things, some hypothesis to explain some things or phenomena being called as theories, bordering on philosophy.
Philosophy, I believe, is about non-materialistic things, abstract or metaphysics being used for want of a better term. Science and the real sense of religion are supposed to meet these two aspects, with no downgrading or upgrading involved.
Since the topic has not yet died, I may advance some more drivel!
The wonderful power plant of nature, that of the human brain, is governed by two layers.
The control function, based on information collected and transmitted by numerous sensory cells, a conscious action of processing and issuing commands, is that of ‘the brain’., falling under ‘voluntary action’
The second layer, falls under ‘involuntary action’, is governed by spinal cord, connected to and forming an important part of, the central brain, but yet in a different location.
When the brain ‘sleeps’, an unconscious state, this layer takes over essential control, with involuntary action., as in the quick and involuntary pulling up of the hand or leg when the mosquito bites a sleeping person., bypassing the brain action.
A subject which very much fascinated me in my school days, with half baked impression still left..
One micro part of the brain, called neurons, are endowed with ‘radiating properties’, as per present day discovery. meaning transmission without physical connection, explaining the mystery of ‘action at a distance’, of mind power.
Like the unopened Tiruvanandapuram temple dens, Nature may still hold quite a lot of unsuspected treasures!
Hope the flow continues from brain, on brain, in the science or abstract plains!
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GRS - Apr 11 at 11:17 AM
Very interesting reading. KN’s posting brings out the hard fact, which I was not “conscious”. Even reactor was first “built” by nature at Gabon Africa, where it operated with a high capacity factor for thousands of years. I now see that two independent control systems already existed in humans ( and animals?). Also there is no sharing between these two human system until Final Acting Elements. May be there are other areas in nature which can yield “gyan” to designers.
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pd - Apr 11 at 12:41 PM
Everybody is talking about what conciousness is and what it is not. But I want to know why it is so. Any answers?
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RA - Apr 11 at 12:45 PM
There is no denying that the true wisdom / supreme consciousness / Virat Roop / Divya Darshan, call it by any name, is boundless. Human ignorance may be an ocean but still bounded. All human efforts (and ours in this group too) are to shrink the borders of the ocean of ignorance, kind of reclaiming knowledge form the ignorance. Does it make any difference to the boundless knowledge / consciousness? No. BUT it make a huge difference to our vision / to our understanding of the true nature of the universe. We peel of one more layer of unfounded fear / unreasonable dogma / romanticized falsehood.
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AG - Apr 11 at 3:39 PM
Literally , in medical parlance {scientifically}, the " Measurement of Consciousness " is done by EEG.
The way , cardiac activities are seen on ECG monitors and very regular patterns with up/down & in between straight , indicates normal functioning of heart pump.
Similarly, Regular pulse patterns on EEG is supposed to show normal electrical activities ( level of consciousness) on different points on brain.
Whether a person is in sleep, wakeful state , inebriated, coma etc.every minute details can be monitored on EEG screen.
When all lines fall flat, - no consciousness - known as "Brain Dead".
Semi/Un/ Consciousness ,- all are in the domain of time, space & causation {earthly existence), but the next higher up "Super Consciousness" seems to be altogether different ball & game , very very rare personalities only may reach there.
But almost all present day Babas/Gurus try to kick the ball through that window of opportunity
To run their show/business.
- Just some random thoughts, nothing more .
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K.N - Apr 11 at 7:00 PM
I treat this group as a sort of technical and philosophical journal, an assembly of fairly intelligent people, hard to get anywhere and love to do loud thinking with.
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RV - Apr 11 at 7:18 PM
Consciousness is perhaps measurable only so long as it occupies and manifests in the equipment it has chosen.
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RR - Apr 12 at 4:43 AM
PDS's message is amusing indeed, like the outdated Charvak philosophy.
I had a neighbour in the college hostel in Delhi Engineering college in 1955. His grandma showed up suddenly from Gwalior to personally check the welfare of her ‘baby boy’ who had never been away out of Gwalior home. I remember, we were returning from the smithy shop practice. Grandma looked at the ‘baby’s’ tender hands full of blisters. She fired the workshop superintendent for his cruelty and would you believe she took the student away- just to keep her baby’s life simple? The precious seat remained vacant the rest of the year.
Everyone has a message to deliver, based on his or her personal experiences.
While Life must be simplified, that is what engineering and technology all about. Yet In our craze for simplicity, we cannot afford to be simplistic or simpletons.
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RR - Apr 12 at 6:04 AM
ABG made interesting observation on Gyan, as applicable in modern India..
It is true only a few can attain the end goal, but everyone is entitled to make the attempt. The quality can come only out of the quantity.
Remember the famous Bell Curve in Statistics course. The image below is taken from Google.
The curve shows the following interpretation in respect of Knowledge-
Some are ignorant/confused (the left side trail)
Some are knowledgeable (the right side trail)
Majority are in between, or struggling(the central hump).
Progress or process improvement means the curve is gradually skewed to the right, as more and more members in the control group are participating.
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AM - Apr 12 at 6:55 AM
Appears, there is some ∆ room left to push in a few more thoughts.
The heading itself appears to be misleading, for, to measure any thing, lends itself to a 'physical quantity'. It might better have been "Menifesting Conciousness" or a similar one.
There are many non physical quantities, even in Science, that are only menifested in theory, but not (as yet) physically experienced or measured e.g the black holes, the dark matter, the great subatomic forces, even the gravity waves till a few years back, quantum mechanics etc and I am not counting the omnipresent biological ones, like the greatest of all mystries "what's Life, the Concept of God, what's the purpose of this Creation etc etc?".
So,... it's a 'trap' to muddy the waters when we push this item towards a .... "physical quantity" or 'how it matters' like thoughts .
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AG - Apr 12 at 9:36 AM
Don't know : Right or wrong.
It appears, the more appropriate word would have been :
"CONSCIENCE /CONSCIENTIOUSNESS", - which, not being a physical parameter, cannot be visualised by any method or instrumental at all.
- Just an attempt, nothing more.
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BM - Apr 12 at 11:08 AM
Consciousness is a qualitative term. It is possible to experience it, but not possible to measure it.
As RR Compares Consciousness with infinity (equivalent to the Level of GOD CONSCIOUSNESS :- say 7th Level ) महात्मा बुद्ध, गुरू नानकदेव जी lived life on the 7th level of consciousness.
All saint's also lives life on the higher level of consciousness than other peoples.
In my opinion all great scientists also lives life on higher level of consciousness than ordinary peoples. Because God selected that body of scientists for new creation eg scientists 'Arya Bhatt, Edison etc etc.
We all are born as Human beings, it is possible for us to improve our qualities.
If we are able to increase our qualities in the same ratio our consciousness will be increased.
So being human it is very much in our hand to increase our level of consciousness and established in Samadhi (समाधि)
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AM - Apr 12 at 12:55 PM
Appears, there is some ∆ room left to push in a few more thoughts.
The heading itself appears to be misleading, for, to measure any thing, lends itself to a 'physical quantity'. It might better have been "Menifesting Conciousness" or a similar one.
There are many non physical quantities, even in Science, that are only menifested in theory, but not (as yet) physically experienced or measured e.g the black holes, the dark matter, the great subatomic forces, even the gravity waves till a few years back, quantam mechanics etc and I am not counting the omnipresent biological ones, like the greatest of all mystries "what's Life, the Concept of God, what's the purpose of this Creation etc etc?".
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AKS - Apr 12 at 1:28 PM
I think conscious and consciousness are two different thing.
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RA - Apr 12 at 5:48 PM
It seems we are wandering all over the field of consciousness. Starting with trying to measure the consciousness, to discouraging measurement of an infinite, to encourage only its experience, to distinguishing its measurable / gradable aspect, to recognising superlative grades of "C" (randomly at 7) granted by the divine grace to the accepted great achievers. The reason is the subject is truly fascinating, complex and hence challenging.
AM gives a list of nonphysical entities which so far are intractable / discernible including "C", one among them is "What is Life".It reminds me of the lecture series delivered at Dublin University, about 75 years back by the famous physicist Erwin Schrodinger, yes the same with the famous cat. With care he has avoided the singularity of origin of life and the backlash of the mighty church. In four lectures he painted the complexity of biological systems in a way which was fascinating to the students of other branches of science. That really opened the flood gates of interdisciplinary research. Not only the understanding of biological functions and processes made a quantum jump, it enriched the other branches of science. AND STILL WHAT IS LIFE IS INTRACTABLE.
In short there is no reason to give up a hard problem as understanding or measuring "C" , there could be other side benefits spinning out of it. I think our group understands this instinctively and is carrying on every which way.
One more thing. Does our group has "C"? Because as per the article referred by AM
" Other things that have zero phi (no "C"), according to Tononi, include collectives of sentient individuals, such as corporations or the United States"
We often talk of collective "C" of the society or nation etc is that of a non existent thing? Or is it the part of the same complexity and intractability of big "C"?
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RR - Apr 12 at 8:29 PM
Worrying is not the correct verb. Nothing substantial is ever achieved by worrying, nor by ignoring or burying the head in sand.
The correct verb may well be to understand for yourself intellectually through self-study, and/or friendly help and face the issue responsibly and courageously. Finally eat the Prasadam, to experience the grace and bliss.
Realising Consciousness is whole nine yards of spiritual technology. Once you pick up the baton on the field, you must run the full length. No short cut, no dropping out.
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AM - Apr 12 at 9:45 PM
Reading RA's thought provoking questions in his last paragraphs, some out of the box thought occured to me.
Is the "Concept of Conciousness" some how representative of the "Concept of the Universe"??
Both seem to be full of comlexities, diversities, surprises, unlimited in dimensions, ever expanding etc....
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K.N - Apr 14 at 11:46 AM
Just some stray thoughts to keep the light, humorous, responsibly responsive, flow of mails in our group!
Co ordinates are relative and the same remark may have different connotations from different coordinates.
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RR - Apr 14 at 2:43 PM
An interesting conclusion.
-There are Different interpretations of the word Consciousness.
- Yet it is simple to argue that for anything to make sense, must be measurable.
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K.N
On rereading, I still feel that we are dealing with two very different things. The author of the article ‘link’ed by AM also is not clear in his perception. On a purely scientific topic ( in the medical field) about declaring the state of a patient( or a normal being) in the scale of consciousness and unconscious state, (as in a patient being medically shifted from a conscious to an unconscious state as part of a medical procedure), the confusion was introduced by bringing in scientifically unconnected topic of Wisdom and Knowledge. One may note that this was done only in the first/second para and does not figure in further development of the scientific quantification of the unconscious state, medically.
Our wise members also caught this parenthetical reference , opening up discussion on this non-medical, abstract topic ., and tried to connect the topic of measurement to the impossible, infinite, abstract Wisdom and Knowledge, not the topic dealt with in the article.
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AkS - Apr 14 at 8:20 PM
Topic can become even more interesting if the conscious can be defined or elaborated. Voice if conscious is very often used statement for achieving multiple objectives.
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RR - Apr 14 at 9:27 PM
Came across some witty and wise tales….
1. One passenger to another, "I always carry two books on flights. This is the book #1, I am going to read, and book#2, in case book#1 is terrible".
Lesson: One cannot avoid the terrible ones, or scams, or cheating or stealing, or lying that is going on. Read only, or spyware may be a solution. Mindful Choice making, and Self-care is another, or the better way.
2. Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on teaching at Stanford, “ It is not my job to make you comfortable. Actually, it is my job to make you uncomfortable”
Lesson: Pain is the unavoidable price of freedom, Freedom from pain can come from spiritual growth and deep personal transformation. Each person has his/her own recipe. No need to argue, or to block the outside by living in a glass box.
We have only two hands. Learn to Use these to win over your own inner chatterbox (चित्त वृत्ति), not to fight the crowd-at-large outside. Hats off to Ms. Rice.
3. Fred: What’d you get your wife for Christmas?
Ned: She told me,” Nothing would make me happier than a diamond necklace.
Fred: So you got her diamonds.
Ned: No, I got her Nothing.
Lesson: The IAS type answer generally wins in materialistic life. One must, however be careful in applying the same lesson to non-materialistic issues.
4. The timeless message- Be Simple and Stay positive... Thanks to PDS
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pd - Apr 14 at 9:34 PM
To whoever can help
KINDLY give definition (in 1/2/3 lines ) of
1) Consciousness
2) Atma
-The jigyaasu
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RR - Apr 15 at 7:32 AM
According to Indian Vedanta philosophy,
1. Brahman(ब्रह्म) is the absolute non-dual Supreme Reality, aka the cosmic Self, or pure Consciousness.
2. Atman (आत्मन) is the individual Self, aka the pure Self is eternal/immortal and its essential nature is 3-fold: existence(सत्), consciousness(चित्) and bliss(आनंद).
IOW, Consciousness or Knowledge of the Self leads to Bliss (सच्चिदानंद).
Attaining Bliss, through Self-realisation is the true goal of human life.
3. There is a perfect identity between the individual Self and the cosmic Brahman. The difference or duality between the two is simply illusion.
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AM - Apr 15 at 7:57 AM
All this Vedanta philosophy about "Aatma", Brahma and "Parmatma", is it just just a nomenclature or a definition or an explanation about an otherwise unknown entitity? Does it have some origin or ending or a foundation or a menifestation, either in the physical or in a natural format? We know it is eons old and is our heritage but since then our knowledge about nature and universe has grown manifold. And I am sure even it's writers did not proclaim it as absolute wisdom n or truth that it can't be updated or challenged.
As, without any such basic links now, it tentamounts to an "Alice in Wonderland" like scenario for the uninitiated. Sorry for the rebuttal but this may be the feeling of all of us except the proponents.
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K.N - Apr 15 at 8:57 PM
For the complex topics of Brahman, atma, karma and tbe like, a devouted scholar would go for textual treatments, or the gigabytes of internet not to this group.
That is why Forwards and Links for the same referred to in this group, piously, seemed to.me to be a bit odd.
Viewed from a different angle , possibly with a new glossary, possibly with some different interpretations, possibly with awe from a historical perspective, may be different., and has been tried in our group.
But, converting this into a dogmatic Veda class is a bit difficult to take., as expressed typically by AM
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MP- Apr 15 at 9:07 PM
Too much it is, I thought KN appoint a committee for R&D and come out with a physical instrument as spirituality gives different perspectives -
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RR -Apr 16 at 9:19 AM
AM's inputs and comments are appreciated. I am glad you are asking valid questions to ascertain their use in the 21st century.
Apart from short definitions in 3 lines, requested by pd, the following explanation may help in further understanding the relationship between Atman, Brahman and Consciousness
1. Mind-Body-Breathing problem
A material scientist, particularly trained in the Western country (India may also be heading in that direction), generally takes a solid, liquid or gaseous object, analyses it physically and chemically, to manipulate matter and the measurement. That is enough to establish the material existence. A human being is, however not primarily physical. The research is further complicated when mind and breathing enter into the picture. I have met a fellow scientist, saying “Either you are breathing, or not breathing. If you are breathing then everything is alright. If you are not breathing then obviously you are dying. It is that simple, isn’t it?” A yoga teacher trained in India or in the East would however, say it is a foolishly naive approach.
2. Science of Pranayama
At the Institute of Yoga in Santacruz east Mumbai, the library has several treatise books on Breathing which were written centuries ago. In India, breathing has always been an extraordinary science. The Sanskrit word for breathing is Pranayam, consisting of three sub-words: Pra(first unit) + na(energy)+ ayama (manifestation, expansion and contraction).
In order to understand the Cosmic aspect of God, the student is first trained to balance his breathing, calm his nerves and control his mind. Control of mind is a pre-requisite to the ultimate subjugation of the cosmic merging of individual soul Aatman with the cosmic soul Brahman.
3. The current research in the West is surely seized with the benefits of this Upanishadic wisdom, and they are trying to prove it in their labs. They are awed how this was once discovered by Rishis of India, without modern labs, which is truly mind-boggling. It is predictable that Nobel prizes of the near future will be in the realm of Consciousness.
4. Conclusion: My personal view point is this: West was kept bereft of this super science of Consciousness during 200 years or more of British rule. The schools and Universities in America will take time, but sincere efforts are going on. This is a good news.
The bad news is- It is not a simple matter. Believe it or not!
Are the schools and colleges in India similarly equipped? Swami Vivekananda had remarked more than a hundred years ago, 'renaissance of Yogic science will take place in America’. Are the retired scientists leaving such legacy for the new generation, beside the wealth, home or will.
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The last word is not yet written!
