Friday, 23 August 2024

Science behind Sins (Alchemy of Emotions)

 

Recently I came across a bunch of interdisciplinary papers in the field of psychology, anthropology and sociology.  Not the papers themselves, but a kind of synopsis. It was collectively called “Science behind Sins”. The actual papers would have been too heavy for me. The synopsis was also written in the form of layman’s questions and not too technical answers. That’s why I could retain my attention span to go through the pages.

The research is carried out in some American and European Universities. The research started in 1990, on some of our emotions / behavior such as pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth. Most of the religions and societies shun these emotions as sins, as sentiments that must be shunned lest one strays from the right path. The research is made to sound more authentic by use of brain maps, neuro-predictive models, behavioral manipulations, functional MRIs etc. Of course there is AI, that magic ingredient which make anything possible and with a boosted aura of flawlessness and hence acceptable.

The premise is if the emotions which are termed as sins are so bad for the individuals and the society at large how come they have escaped from the process of elimination in our evolutionary journey.

Some of the emotions like pride, lust, gluttony we have carried from our animal past. Many animals show their pride through postures and behavior. It is exhibited to get higher status, differential treatment and access to resources. Authentic pride is out of achievements and others are likely to recognize it through offering differential treatment. What is true in animal world is true in human societies. Hubristic pride is out of arrogance or inflated ego. People in power demand respect/differential treatment without any achievement / being able to provide valued service and are rejected and others show resentment and anger. Such a pride divides society. Pride becomes disruptive when it is through power / powerful allies / intimidation. We can find examples of these in todays domestic and international politics.

Attraction, desire, ambition, greed and envy is one path of emotions / behavior. Today’s advertising is focused on to make you feel inadequate without a certain thing. The Ads put you on an accelerated trajectory of envy. There are no emotions or behavior purely black or white. An ambition is treated as a desired trait, which motivates you to strive for achievements. But on its way, it may expose you to the temptation of unethical ways. It may take you to the brink of abysmal despair if there is a failure.

The recent Olympics tennis final between Djokovic and Alcaraz was a cliffhanger. When Djokovic won the match, he cried profusely without stop. Of course those were the tears of joy, but such display of emotions was not there in his previous victories on many stadia. It also indicates his fixation on the Gold Medal. It also shows the danger of deep despair / depression, he would have suffered had he lost the match. Was he greedy? Would he have been envious of Alcaraz, had he won the match? Alcaraz tried to hide his emotions, but still his eyes were filled and his gait showed his frustration. In the recent Cincinnati open match Alcaraz smashed the racket, is the frustration and envy taking toll on his mental balance and game?

. . . . 

It is important to fix what price in emotions / personal health / mental stability / family life you are ready to pay for the ambitions. There comes a point when the achievement is meaningless. In mountaineering we have a saying “Summit is optional, return to base camp, is mandatory.” But still, some cannot resist the temptation of siren’s songs on the Summit (when already the going is tough and dangerous), the feeling of achievement, the expected glory and fame, and pay with their lives, ending everything in dust.

RYA  20/08/2024

******

As usual you raise another subject of deep human interest- A peek into ourselves.

  I think you should have mentioned the specific origin of these studies. There are many available and it's a fashionable subject to write on any topic via.. "Science behind... so n so....."

   Our own saying "इंसान एक भावनाओ का पुतला है" perhaps sums up everything. Meaning that we all are just playful into the hands of our emotions.

  Another such study by "Discover Science" concluded that our whole brain is involved in such so-called "sins". There is no single area that can be controlled by drugs or electrodes to stop these emotions.

   I quote a part of it below:

"There is no sin center in the brain, no single node of fiendishness that we might be able to shut down with drugs or electrodes. With the advent of modern imaging techniques that peer into the brain as it functions, though, we at least gain some perspective on our bad habits. At the same time, we can indulge in another wickedly gratifying pastime: As other people misbehave, we can sit back and watch.

Lust : In the annals of sin, weaknesses of the flesh—lust, gluttony, sloth—are considered second-tier offenses, less odious than the “spiritual” sins of envy and pride. That’s good news, since these yearnings are notoriously difficult to suppress......"

 UQ: Fortunately these are not bipolar in nature. There is a gradation to them all. As we often see in sports, "Raw Power is of no use". It's only controlled and directed power that achieves the aim. Same is the case with our Emotions. Controlled and well directed these are a blessing and necessary to our aims and actions, but raw, uncontrolled and undirected they would assume the shape of sins.

  I believe so too. 

  It's also so beautifully annunciated in गीता by Shri Krishna to Arjuna in the battle field. Our scriptures have dealt with these mind games much more elaborately, completely and so early that the west are just touching upon now. 

The concept of "sin" needs to be understood too. Though Judaism, Christianity and Islam have defined it as edicts from their Gods (10 Commandments etc) that are to be followed for a peaceful propagation of a society. There are no such edicts in Hinduism. Instead we have defined the vices, like  काम, क्रोध, लोभ, मोह और मद, मत्सर etc. to be avoided, which again is a code to conduct for oneself and others.

  Any defiling of these edicts is a sin. Whilst the other religious edicts may have served the old systems of Society, our principles are universal in nature and time proof. Thanks

AM  21/8/2024

*****

Somehow this mail from RYA reminds me of Darwin’s  theory of Evolution.

Why evolution? It can be Extinction, too?

I  have often wondered   how such a common place observation and deduction  has come to stand  as a  famous theory!

We all try to adjust to our surroundings in life  or we perish.

Theories get support by observations for conformance to known laws or they also perish.

Change of state, meaning Evolution or Extinction,  can happen only with external FORCE,   is our knowledge of science.

Darwin has not postulated any such stimulant in his theory.

There are exceptions, they say cockroaches have defied this theory !

Natural changes are continuous, with no bump and not with unaccounted millennia of no activity.

 Such a gradual evolution would also have seen some form of gradual documentation ( by word or deed)  and not a suddenly assembled  dinoceros  here or a dug out Harappa there!  

Maybe the hiatus and bumps are Nature’s  turning points with its own impulsive forces of Earthquakes and Tsunamies, putting a question mark on Darwin’s theory!

May not apply to a different metaphysical world of emotions, conscience.  Here there is no evolution or destruction, only revolution from one state to another.

 Efforts are still being made to find that mysterious force to cause the change, but may be only in postulations.  

Darwin’s theory  pertains to the material world of matter. Matter is built of fundamental particles and tbeir interactions.

Similar constituents  are proposed in the metaphysical  world of brain , termed as neurons. They attribute some properties to neurons to explain  the different world of emotions . Some special neurons, endowed with some creative AI, try to wriggle out to causes change -  and evolution.

But all  only  theories , with no corresponding measure of success as  in the material world, not even being able to isolate the neuron ‘particle’. 

While the rest of the world was pursuing  MATTER,  the ancient sages of Bharat, pursued the MIND, with deep thoughts in isolation on the origin of Brahman,  or Self and the mind.

The findings were recorded as Upanishads and puranas and Ithihasas.,  much before the theory of evolution by the West.

The Dasaavtharam starting from   MATSYA avatar, ending in Krishnaavatar , do symbolically depict the evolution of MATTER. 

On the other side of MIND, there is no evolution only revolution of the three basic gunas.

Krishna articulated these findings in his Gita as the MIND  functioning  as the combination of three fundamental forces,    in different proportions.

Satwa     Calm and balanced disposition

Rajas     Emotion, passion, enjoyment , activity and movement in pursuit of these

Tamas      Laziness,  ignorance, inertia, smugness

 None of them is ‘good’   Or ‘bad’  in absolute terms but the combination in different proportions  constitute a personality.

The mythological avatars are about doing course correction  in the realm  of MIND,  when the two rajas and thamas apparently get the upper hand,  to tilt towards satwa, but never a lasting success,  calling for repeated Avatars!

So, there can be no EVOLUTION on the Mind- Emotions side, answer to RYA’s 

“The premise is if the emotions which are termed as sins are so bad for the individuals and the society at large how come they have escaped from the process of elimination in our evolutionary journey.”

AM has put it rightly    “Our scriptures have dealt with these mind games much more elaborately, completely and so early that the west are just touching upon now.”

KN     21/8/2024

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I did not give the reference of the papers, as I did not read those papers. But the names of some of the authors whose papers were discussed I can share with you for your further reading and research. 

On Envy, there were two, Jens Lange, University of Hamburg and Andrew Oswald, University of Warwick. On "Greed" there was Karlijn Hoyer, University of Amsterdam, Rahul Oka, University of Notre Dame (USA), Marcel Zeelenberg - Tilburg School of Social and Behavioral Sciences. For each so-called "Sins" there were at least two persons giving their findings. Sometimes it was brain maps giving the different brain regions with their names and which emotion / behavior what kind of chemical signal produces or which are regions excited by what chemicals etc, I simply ignored, being sure I would not be able to retain it. With you it may be a different case. 

Having an interdisciplinary approach to the study of any field is advantageous. It throws different facets of the issue for our view. Both of you have seen the subject from a moral / scripture oriented view. Natarajan would like to disassociate the animal kingdom from the higher world of metaphysics. The higher animals show all the emotions / traits which we classify as Satwa, Rajas and Tamas. We cannot deny that we have inherited much from our animal past. With our advances in cognitive skills we have been able to postulate an ideal mix of these गुण and try to propagate this idea through religion / scriptures / diktats.   KN rightly states that at one stage the humans have made a quantum jump in cognitive field, from then onwards there was no going back.  What caused it or was it a random chance or mutation or an external seeding is still a big mystery. 

****** 
The Greed is one thing most of us experience. When the temptation takes over the mind it morphs into greed. Today greed is associated mostly with money or wealth. In general terms it is accumulation of resources far beyond your needs. I think identification of greed, as we know it, would have happened far later in our evolutionary / civilizational history. But its earliest form of gluttony would have been there right from our animal stage. All animals know the resources / food is scarce and uncertain, so when you get a chance of abundance, hoard it for the lean period. There was no safer place than the belly. Even the body knows it is important to store fat for the lean period. Not only does the body store the fat quickly but it is reluctant to shed it.  All weightwatchers would vouch for it. Vinesh Phogat would have experienced it the hard way. This gluttony comes with associated risk of becoming vulnerable as the animal becomes sluggish, so a balance has to be achieved and one must know when to stop. So the animals would have realised that gluttony has to be moderated, it is not all bad or all good. Of course they did not issue any diktats. Those who realised it survived and others perished. 

In the film "Wall Street" the lead character famously says "Greed is good". What he meant was greedy people in their greed tend to be more creative and develop new products, hire more people and therefore they drive the economy. In short, Elon Musk types. Greed can definitely be a motivator to realise an ambition and drive people to go little bit further than they would normally go. But greed is more than this. Greed is an insatiable desire for more, and dissatisfaction with what you have. A clear formula for a miserable mind. 

Just as in the case of gluttony, people would have realized the need to strike a balance. And there were some who really could achieve this. They brought prosperity to wider society, of course they accumulated vast wealth. They were not just traders, they brought in new ideas for commerce and economics. They were able to govern such an economic activity better. In the middle ages it was realized and the rulers and administrators in Europe, came up with the concept of chartered cities,  which were governed by the commerce community. Even in India Chola and Chalukya kings had Nagarams and Patanams which were essentially run by the trading community. Its modern version is special economic zones. 

I never knew how economists look at greed and how it has shaped modern commerce. But the chartered cities or the Nagarams had to be under the hawk eyes of a worthy  regulator who was beyond the narrow view of money making. Where it failed the traders played a havok with the general population and the environment. 

****** 
A trivia: 
In the animal world actual fights are a last resort, as physical injury makes you vulnerable. Usually they try to show their superiority by various means and the one who is weaker leaves without a fight. You often see it in stray street dogs. You would rarely find a dog getting wounded in a fight. 
How do two vultures fight over the food? Vultures are known for their gluttony. The vulture who has not eaten for a long while parts his belly feathers, showing his shrunken belly and his readiness to fight till the end to get the food. The other vulture may leave the food to avoid the deadly fight. 

This information is also there in how animals use the gluttony for survival. 
RYA      21/08/2024

*****

What is sin?
A person A commits sin when A harms some person who has not harmed.A
But as per this defn all crimes will become sins. So society terms only those crimes as Sin which are against the moral standards of the society.
Regarding the subject of the thread I wish to say:
Almost all persons know what is( considered) bad/good still very often this knowledge does not decide their actions. Their actions are decided by their nature(swabhav) and the situations/ circumstances. Why there are so many types of swabhav are there is perhaps discussed in this thread.

PCD  22/08/2024
****

Many new issues are raised but if I may react to some portions of the Sh K.N's and  RYA's posts quoted below: (hope these will clarify the main issue further)
Sh K.N. "Darwin’s theory  pertains to the material world of matter. Matter is built of fundamental particles and their interactions.    ..Similar constituents  are proposed in the metaphysical  world of brain , termed as neurons."

RYA: "We cannot deny that we have inherited much from our animal past. With our advances in cognitive skills we have been able to postulate an ideal mix of these गुण and try to propagate this idea through religion / scriptures / diktats. "  
UQ:

 There are many reports of the concepts of Human's superiority over the other species. Even though as per Darwin all living beings have a common origin.

  The Concept of superiority needs to be differentiated first. Is it as Individuals or as a Collective species, Cognitive or Physical?

  There are many traits where we are inferior. Bird flights, Fishes breathing in Water, Chimps muscle-fibres being much stronger than ours, some species can survive in extreme temperatures, hibernate for long periods, camouflage, generate electrical pulses, many more. We, infact, learn and copy them. 

  The mile stones of Humans' superiority are also clearly recorded and these basically started from and are based upon their "collective actions", "to live together and help each others of its kind", that none of the other species could equal or match in quality and quantity. 

  All other superior powers, like Communication, Harnessing of Fire, Sources of Energy, Agricultural Economy, Health Care, Exploiting Geological and Photosynthetic Energies, Discovering Force Multipliers etc emanated from our "Collective Actions" only.

   Undoubtedly,, our Cognitive Powers too have grown simultaneously as exemplified by the growth in size of our heads. But it's not clear which one preceded the other,... ease of life or growth of brain power, perhaps together. 

   Unfortunately, simultaneously we have collected all the negative traits too due to the fissures in these very collective traits, which have grown to the proportion of destroying ourself. 
AM     22/08/2024 

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Yes PCD, all crimes may have the roots in sin, but all sins may not be a crime. As for the orthodox definition of Sin, even to think or wish ill for the others is Sin. This is not a crime as per the jurisprudence. 

AM, our superiority over the animal world is as a species. A species which has collectively acquired so much power to decide on the destiny of the whole Living World wisely or otherwise. 
You say, and I quote "The mile stones of Humans' superiority are also clearly recorded and these basically started from and are based upon their "collective actions", "to live together and help each others of its kind", that none of the other species could equal or match in quality and quantity." 

I would like to point out these traits of "collective actions", "to live together and help each other" and learn through observations, rudimentary hygiene and health care etc we have acquired from our immediate ancestors in the animal world, the apes and monkeys. There would be a number of examples on the net and in books to show this fact. I am giving a link to a video, which I did about 20 years back, as my personal experience of this fact. It is a 6 minutes video. You may watch from 2:10 to 3.0 to see how a group of bonnet monkeys attend to sick and injured baby. Observe how the young monkeys are keenly observing the whole operation. The baby is inspected for parasites, his wound is cleaned, his health is accessed by urine and feces inspection.  Isn't that what we do and do it more efficiently today? 

Here is the link (The narration is in Marathi)

RYA
22/08/2024
***
I was a little puzzled by the title 'Science behind Sins' and looked for definition of a sin.
It is given as  '"an action or way of behaving that is not allowed by a religion." That means it is subjective, whereas Science is most secular. 
Further down the article mostly explains Emotions. While sin is about an action. It is difficult to control emotions, but you can control your actions.
In Hindu scriptures they talk of Kaayaa, Manasaa, Vaachaa. So even an evil thought is a sin. 

I have a very little understanding of Darwin's theory of Evolution (or elimination), but I never thought it accumulated only all the excellent qualities and rejected all bad qualities or weaknesses as the evolution progressed. Then the nature would have ended up in only a single strong and self sufficient species. The evolution has actually resulted in innumerable species and in each species, there are strongest to weakest individuals.
Why the evolution did not shed the bad emotions?  The question is similar to why did The almighty God create bad characters in the first place and then take the trouble of getting into a avatar to eliminate them? It resulted in an enormous amount of collateral damage. I think this question has been answered by many Pandits giving various theories.
Actually it may be more surprizing why there are selfless good people in this world? What prompts anyone to do a sacrifice?
Like Science behind the sins, some people might have found some Science behind nobility.
ABG     23/8/2024
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Yes,  So much of Enlightening  "Divergences" have come out along the way; -  hence   one approach (?)for   "Convergence" On "Science Behind Sins".

First If we Explore "Science"; -
It is Universal In Nature , irrespective of Time , Space and Causation ,- so long the "Cause "  remains the same,  "Effect"(Result) too has to remain  the same  with full repeatabilities for N no: of times, without fail. If not so , then it has to be Anything ,But  Science.

Next if "Sin" is examined. Broadly ,it  also  certainly has  universal nature and appeal ,but can it   be placed  in or around  the truthfulness of "Science" ?

Overall,  everywhere  it is taken  as an act by one or more ,which can cause harm or loss of any nature/kind  , to any one / group of living beings .

Some concessions { like  DCN/DCR in our parlance } are  extended ,if that  act takes place inadvertently,  unknowingly without any malafide intentions etc.
Of course, that "benefit of doubt"  can be extended  once only  in a given situation ,not again and again !

 Now a days {fashionable too} the  term "Law Of Karma" gets  used quite extensively  , without  adhering to   devoutness  for any particular religious scriptures ;- just to emphasis that such and such person did so much bad or good things to others ,resulting back into  something bad or good  happening  with the same person.
One school of thought says , - in absolute terms ,there is nothing like good or bad, - all relative positioning only, - someone's good has to be someone's bad and vice versa{ like all time Share Market Phenomena} ;- some  believers take it to even very higher levels,  up to next or successive birth/s !
There is one  school of thought  that ; just thinking of even worst { in any conventional scale}  kind in any  nature does not constitute any kind of  "Sin" , until and unless those are  accompanied by any kind of Action.

But ,if just  thinking bad can constitute "Sin" in the "Debit &  Credit" account of a person then in the reverse order , just  thinking "Good" can also   accrue some "Virtue" in the same account , - which could  be very convenient way for many  many "Aspirants" to acquire some "Inverse Of Sin",i.e:-"Credit Score" in this life itself,  for very effective  utilisasion in future  lives { if  possible  at all !}.

Since all these latter things can not be placed along the same row with Science ,- these Two can better  be considered as parallel lines , somewhat like railway tracks  , - can never attain  any meeting ground / point.

Btw,  I 've seen the 6 min watchful behaviour pattern of monkey video clip , portraying with , as usual good consistent photography /edit -  mixing , along with some Carnatic Instrumental background score.

AKG    23/8/2024

. . . .  . 

Regarding the present thread of Science and Sin,
only the observation  “The premise is,  if the emotions which are termed as sins are so bad for the individuals and the society at large how come they have escaped from the process of elimination in our evolutionary journey.” 
triggered my follow up on  the different topic of Darwin’s theory  and does not jell with whatever is discussed under the heading of Science and Sin.
I  am adding a few more footnotes to  this deviation to Darwin and suggest expunging the whole  from this thread , as a misfit! The rest will make some homogenous reading on the subject of  science and Sin.

Added the following 

May not apply to a different metaphysical world of emotions, conscience.  Here there is no evolution or destruction, only revolution from one state to another. So, there can be no EVOLUTION on the Mind- Emotions side, unlike in the materialistic parallel.

Darwin’s Theory is natural selection and adoption, automatically presupposes extinction of species not being able to adopt.  That is how the evolution of man from ape, sited as an illustration of Darwin’s theory, also entails the extinction of ape. 
 What did evolve from , say a dynoseros,  after the extinction of that form of life? No other illustration can be sited for Darwin’s theory except the solitary Ape - Man, making that as only a proposition, somehow had come to stay as a great theory of Evolution!

In contrast the Dasavatharam mythology, proposes evolution along with coexistence, not necessarily a fact  or an allegorical theory,  but could be simply fiction, but with such richness of imagination ! 

As I have once elaborated, the richness of Upanishads and mythology, gradually got effaced by getting shrouded with a stamp of a particular religion, and lost its rightful place in the world of Humanities and philosophy,  along with  Socrates, Plato, Aristotle , ...

K.N.     24/8/2024
. . . . . . . 

Dear AKG, we engineers tend to look at the term science from our familiar understanding of physical / chemical / nuclear angle. But the term is used in association with what we term as humanities such as Sociology (Social science), Politics (Political Science) and many more. When you say, “It (Science) is Universal In Nature , irrespective of Time , Space and Causation ,- so long the "Cause "  remains the same,  "Effect"(Result) too has to remain  the same  with full repeatabilities for N no: of times, without fail.” You are looking at closed and isolated systems. But in real world you would hardly find such systems, that is why you need the labs to recreate the exact environmental conditions to repeat the test results. When there are variables beyond your control, which would be the case in social sciences, you look for a pattern in response and not a mathematical answer like 2 plus 2 equal to 4.

The papers or rather the synopsis of papers I referred to are interdisciplinary. When the neuro scientists and bio-chemists map the brain and tell us that the “Feelings of deep attachment are run by the oxytocin systems” or “Romantic love, for example, comes from the ventral tegmental area (structure in the mid brain involved in reward, consumption, learning, memory and addictive behaviour) which is a tiny little factory near the very base of the brain. It spews out dopamine and leads to craving, focus and motivation”. This biological fact will be true for all humans, but the amount of dopamine released will depend on the cultural and social / societal background where the individual is raised. That is why the response to the gender issues (which are over heated today) from a person raised in orthodox patriarchal society of say Bihar and that raised in Kerala, where there are still traces of matriarchal society will be divergent. The papers say how the societies approach influences your feelings. The case of Chinese population is sighted. Some how Chinese are more ready to condone greed than the European..

For me the papers showed different angles to look at the so-called Sins. It introduced me to the term of Disaster Economy. This is run basically by the engine of Greed. To take our own example of our response to COVID, how did in a short time the supply chain of the plastic protective gear was established (which was charged a fortune), the fancy masks without meeting any standards flooded the market, how did the huge COVID isolation wards / hospitals (in open grounds like the Bandra Kurla Complex) came up, and functioned well to the satisfaction of the patients. One of the professors is studying these disaster economies to find what inputs it can give to improve the regular management / supply chain systems.

******

Dear KN Sir, I beg to differ from your views on evolution and Darwin’s theory.

As per the theory early Humans and Chimpanzees have same ancestor apes. You know the whole story. Maybe you just overlooked it. In short, the picture gives the gist.
                                                                                                                                                                             


Chimpanzees were successful on trees whereas weak in muscle strength Australopithecus was forced to forages on ground and further develop his biped advantage. This new life style posed many challenges those individuals who had potential to adopt and circumvent the challenges achieved the next step in the journey to Sapiens. Chimps happily remained in trees and remained such without much progress.

The books of Richard Dawkins and Stephen Jay Gould tell a very engaging stories of the evolution.

You are wondering on who took over from Dinosaurs. When the huge animals were there, there were smaller animals of the similar genetic stock. They had slimmer bodies to hide from predators. They were the early reptiles. There was the evolutionary branch of crocodiles. They are seen today with not much difference.  When the dinosaurs perished these reptiles took over. They had already developed leaping capabilities and some gliding. They became the ancestors of birds. The anatomy of reptiles like lizards and birds is similar. We still have the flying Lizards; they are in fact gliders. In the Dandeli forest of Karnataka we can see them. They have developed a foldable skin membrane between their forelegs and hind legs. When they jump from high tree branch, they unfold the membrane like wings, which helps them to cover long distances in flight. I have seen them and photographed them while seating, but to shoot them in flight you need a high-speed camera.

RYA   24/8/2024

******

RYA, Yes , Correct .
 On an extended thought process , I  also felt the missing gap ;-  was almost about to write as P.S.{ Post Script},- vis a vis  :-  this portion of "Sciences" -i.e Social Science , Behavioral  Science, Natural  {Biological} Science , Psychology etc.

In fact Neuropsychology ,which, I believe,  must be about finding of linkages &  detection of patterns from   Dopamine , Oxytocin kind of hormone related activities of a brain { human or animal} ,is also very much science and  scientists in that domain also use replication to ensure that their findings are accurate and reliable by repeating a method and finding with different spectrum of lives , at different occasions too .

Therefore ,this extended  Paradigm also very much gets included in the terminology of "Science".

The Evolution of species, as  unfolded meticulously ,  in this last mail is very much interesting to read and for an  increment in G.K.
Yes, I  have also seen Flying Lizard  & Snake too ,in Discovery / NG/ Animal Planet Channel , a few years back.

 AKG 
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Extremely  interesting discussion. But it appears that discussions are on the lines of present day definition of the science as enumerated by RYA. However if we define science as truth which does not change with time space and so on. Guru Nanak said "Aad Sach , Jogad Sach  Hai be Sach, Nanak ho see bi Sach."So this is more accurate definition of the science. There are physical principals of nature but there are subtle principals of nature as well .Man knows many and many are still hidden from man.
Further there is difference of studying the principles of natures by earlier man and present day man.Guru Nanak said "So hee Bramande ,So hee Pinde."Is not it that universe is made from let us call Boson or Higgs or energy ,so is the human starting from the same material .It is equally possible to study the principals of nature using our senses or something which persons like Krishana,Buddha ,Christ, Mohammed,Guru Nanak  Kabir and many more used to study the nature and created scriptures. As per the scriptures  the definition  of the Sin is ,An action which takes one away from the goal of achieving happiness.

KSC   25/8/2024
*****

Thinkers, mostly scientists, have given theories about why and how of evolution
.Evolution or  physical changes in creatures ,including extinction of species, is all done by the NATURE/GOD(N/G)  by rules/theories known only to N/G.
Since humans are within N/G their trying to find the rules of N/G is like one trying to see one' eyes by the one's own eyes !!!

PCD  25/8/2024
*********

Though we are segregating these mental aberrations like envy, pride, gluttony, sloth etc and their consequences as sins, ....that's good for their understanding and analysis, but these are interconnected, for one gives rise to the other.
  Also, like all other aberrations, Nature has it's own way of depreciating these. Too much of ambitions or losing temper results in a shortened life span by one or the other ailments. 

  As they say, Ants, the most harmless of species, have had the longest survival period as a species.
  So, one may indulge in Sins at his own perils. 

AKM  25/8/2024

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Tuesday, 29 March 2022

Raamaayanaa and Srilankaa

 An interesting discussion on the path Prabhu Shrirama traversed during his Vanavaasa in Ramayana and what people in Srilanka know or think about Raavanaa.

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A.S.  Mar 15 : Below is a nicely annotated map showing the path that प्रभु श्री राम traversed during HIS रामायणम्. 

[ https://eastindiastory.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Ramayan-mapping-the-route-of-vanvaas.jpg ]

Recommend view it at full screen


There have been many other such images in the Internet, but I felt this was much more detailed and well annotated.

For me, there are two issues with this map. 

(1) I thought दण्डकारण्यम् to closer to present day South of West Begal and North Orissa along our East Coast. Maybe memory of my school-day geography is at fault.

(2) I note from this map that राम सेतु is not at the shortest distance between the shores of India and Lanka. 

This map image is from a nice blog titled Your Myth Is Our Fact [ https://eastindiastory.com/your-myth-is-our-fact/ ] by Ms Manjulaa Shirodkar where the auhor very persuasively tries to establish that Ramayanam is not just a mythology or just काव्यम् reflecting the literay prowess of महऋषि वाल्मीकि but his meticulous chronicling of History as it evolved; not that I need any convincing to accept  Ramayanam  as a part of our ancient history.I

========


A.S.

There is a book called: Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia

https://www.amazon.in/dp/0195635183/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_ZFXQXFK6CANFZN6227DH  Edited by Paula Richman

It consists of several Ramayanams as narrated not only in different parts of India, but also as told and enacted to suit their own ancient cultural ethos, while maintaining the essential core of the narration, in Sri Lanka, Thailand, and other Far Eastern countries.. I had read the book long ago, and all I remember now is that I did not like it at that time.

As far as I am concerned, the original Vaalmiki's Ramayanam has been told and retold over thousands of years and eons in all parts of India, mostly unaltered and this itself gives it much weightage as its core narrative being a true description even if one concedes a bit of poetic licence in some of its embellishments.

1) We do now have slightly different versions of the original Ramayanam chronicled by Rishi Vaalmiki in Sanskrit, (and as accepted by a vast majority of persons), by Sant Tulsidas and Tamizh Poet Kamban. There is a very nice third English book closely following Vaalmiki's narrative, by Sh C. Rajagopalachari (1st Governor General of India and CM of Madras State). There could be many more well-followed versions (such as in Bengali, Telugu, Malayalam etc) by other authors, about which I do not know.

2) Having read English translations (Gita Press, Gorakhpur) of both Vaalmiki and Tulsidas, I realise that Tulsidas's versions, for his very good reasons, differs in many anecdotes compared to those of Vaalmiki.

3) Even Tyagaraja Swami, to reinforce his bhakti filled description of Prabhu Sri Rama's 'Mahima' (I think Tulsidas calls this 'Ram ki Kala'), has composed a kriti with an anecdote that is not brought out in Vaalmiki Ramayanam -- I had narrated this anecdote several years ago in the "email-group".

There is a general habit of many writers, who know that they may not become as famous as the original author of any literary masterpiece, and so interpolate their own writing, attempting to imitate the style of the original creator, and add it to the story as though it is a part of the original. This happens in all cultures. I have come across fake additions in great Tamizh literary works; A few of Tyagaraja Swami's beautiful Kritis are said to have been imitated and falsely propagandised as being his own. Same thing has been said of Shakespeare's works too.

As far as I know, only Vaalmiki's Ramayanam is considered original and "Standard". I understand that Valmiki Ramayanam stops with Prabhu Sri Rama and Devi Sita's Pattabhishekam. Uttara Ramayanam (with the Dhobhi story) was a later interpolation by one or more persons who wanted the kalank (shamefilled blame) on a married woman staying at another person's house overnight (that view which was strongly held in the society of those days) to be reinforced on the back of the popularity of Ramayanam.

Addendum:

Based on the Ramayanam pravachanam-s (discourses) I have listened to in Aastha Channel, I understand that Prabhu Sri Rama, Devi Sita and Sri Lakshmana spent most of their exile at Panchavati. By the time they left Panchavati on their way south, 12 years out of 14 had elapsed. Another 4 months or so were lost when Sri Rama and Sri Lakshmana were "grounded" in Kishkinda due to the monsoon season there. Add to this about 9 days of war. After the Yuddham, they accomplished a quick return via aerial route, to reach Ayodhya, bang at the end of 14 years to the day. So all in all Sri Rama had about 600 days to reach Sri Lanka from Panchavati via their meandering path. (In fact, at Ashoka Vanam, Devi Sita tells Sri Hanuman that she will keep her life only for one more year till Sri Rama comes and saves her from Ravana; I think Sri Rama achieved that schedule very comfortably.)

All in all, belief is belief. It may be interesting to know that 'flat earthers' still exist, in fairly good numbers.

-----


AM. Mar 15 at 1:22 PM

  A great revelation indeed if true. There have been many speculations about the places mentioned in Ramayana including where is Lanka. Even the people of Srilanka do not believe in the legacy of Rawana or that Rama visited with his army and killed Rawana there. I had read a theory that the island was actually off the coast of Orissa. 

  Anyhow, descriptions of Chitrakoot, Dandakaranya Forests fairly matches with the Vindhya, Satpura Ranges. Is Nasik really the Panchwati?  Ramji travelled on foot from here to Lankapuri that's nearly 2000 kms by land. It would have taken more than 100 days. 

  Sans some Scientific research, we can keep on speculating on this for years without any conclusions. Thanks.

---


A.S. Mar 15 

It is well recognised that Sri Aadi Sankara at a very young age travelled on foot from Kerala to the Himalayas and places like Vaaranasi.

I think they were hardy people. I expect, Prabhu Sri Rama, as an Avataaram of Maha Vushnu might have done that.

I would suggest, if you have not already visited Nilesh Oak's blogs / may be YouTube Channel too, you may like to see them where he has presented scientific explanations. 

My view: Archelogical finds need not be only the proofs.

Of course in this matter, whether one agrees with the proposition or not may not be a "head going issue"😊

----


A.K.G.

This kind of "Topic" reminds one happening { true or not ;- no idea, but the  messaging is the moot point } , it seems, Gautam Budhha too had to face once { written almost 2/3  years ago in the main group}, when :-

Two Quarrelling Persons came to Buddha to ascertain whether God does exist  or not ?

The First person asked ,

 "God Exists, isn't it"?

Budhha replied in the affirmative.


When second person came and asked:" 

There is nothing called God, isn't it"?

Again Buddha replied in the affirmative.


When both of them went out , - one third person asked  Buddha , - the reason of saying yes to both of them.

It seems, Buddha told :-The highest attribute goes to the "Faith " system , - presence of which only makes many things to "Exist" , and absence of which makes things the other way ,- and thus subject of "God" is not a matter of any "Argument " { Not even Maths or Science too- My Addition}.


Similar might be the case 

and treatment with all kinds of Mythological Proceedings too, 

Which is:-

" Maano to Ganga Maiya,

Na maano to Behta Paani" .

Btw, It seems, Buddhism truly does not believe in God, but in "Reincarnations"  They  Do Agree !!!

-----

ABG  Mar 15 

We had a temple called Rameshwar near our home town Jamkhandi in Karnataka and the local people believed that Prabhu Ramchandra worshipped Prabhu Shiva at that place. There may be several such legends spread throughout India. Those about Ramtek and Panchavati in Maharashtra and Hampi in Karnataka are very strong, but some other researchers have not accepted them. 

I recently  got a video strongly refuting the traditional story, that Shrirama abandoned Seeta  after hearing a washerman (Dhobi) spreading some doubt about her chastity. Then Seeta went to Rishi Valmiki's Ashram, lived there and gave birth to twin sons. When the sons were about 10-12 years old they went to the court of King Shriram and sang whole Ramayan. As per information of that video maker, Shriram and Seeta stayed together and ruled over the world for thousands of years.

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R.Y.A.   Mar 15 

An interesting topic has opened up, just after my 15 days tour of Sri Lanka. I returned on 11th March.

In the Ramayana Ravana is not totally a black character. He is a brahmin, great victorious king, a learned person and a devotee of Shiva who constructed and played Ravana vina, he is attributed as composer of Shiv Tandav Stotram, he ruled over a very prosperous kingdom, which is called A Goldan Lanka. By all accounts he must have been a very popular king and the praja would have been extremely proud of him. Though for us Indians he is the villain of Ramayana.  

I was surprised to find the Sinhala population has no recollection of such a powerful king. Not that they don't trace their ancient history. They trace their history from the 4th BC and earlier of the stone age. They acknowledge the Sangam period. And later their interactions with Chola. Of Course they have reverence to Mahendra and Singhika (spelt in many ways) son and daughter of Emperor Ashok for bringing Buddhism to Lanka. But no recollection of Ravana.  How can this be explained? 

Yes there is a Ramayana tour, for the one who deeply believes in Ramayana. But all the places are of recent origin to boost tourism. The Lankans have nothing to do with it.

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ABG  Mar 15 at 6:46 PM

It is amazing to know that people (tourism operators), who have nothing to do with Shriram or Ravana, conduct a Ramayana tour only for promoting tourism and earn some foreign exchange. We also have a slightly different parallel in Bodhgaya. It is said to be thronged with tourists from Japan and other East Asian countries, while local population may have very few believers in Buddhism, but they do relate to Gautam Buddha.

---

A.M.  Mar 15 at 6:46 PM

Very interesting RYA . 

  Hinduism is much older than Budhism that is only 4-5th century BCE. If they have kept their history so far back, they must know what religion was followed before that. It must be Hinduism being so close in culture to us as well. How can they be not aware of Rama-Ravana when people even as far away as Indonesian were. Thanks 

----

RYA 

Dear AM, Your doubt is valid. It is really surprising Sri Lankan don't relate to Hinduism as their pre-Buddhism religion or way of life. They relate to paganism, the elements of nature assuming the status of deities, the way it is in the Vedic period. One such deity which has continued his existence is Suman Saman. You find his statue in Dambulla cave temple as protector of Buddha. He appears in other places as well. He appears at the base of Sripada  or Adam's peak. It is considered holy by Hindus, Buddhist, and all the three Abrahamic religions. At the base devotees worship Suman Saman for protection and success of the climb.   

Hinduism has considered Buddha as the 9th Avatar of Vishnu and in this way has tried to avoid the conflict or competition with the other religion. The same way Sri Lankan Buddhism has considered Vishu as the protector of Buddha. The statue or a temple of Vishnu appears in many Buddhist shrines. I saw it in the Dambulla cave temple standing behind Buddha's image. In Kandy, in the premises of (Buddha's)Tooth relic temple, there is a separate shrine of Vishu. In Tibetan Buddhism and especially the sects devoted to Tantric practices you find adaptation Hindu deities such as Durga and Bhairav, and many more appear more or less as protectors. We did not find such a truce between the deities statues of Hinduism in Myanmar. There is no relation to any of the Hindu deities. Similar is the story in China. Maybe Sinhala Buddhism  picked up and adopted from Hindu influence from the Big Brother, India and maybe that's why Sinhala Buddhism adopted Vishu as the protector of Buddha. It looks like Buddhism introduced Hindu deities to Sinhala, which sound strange. But there is no explanation why Ramayana influence doesn't appear in Sri Lanka. 

 -----

ABG   16-03-2022

The relationship between Hindu (Sanatan Dharma), Buddhism and Jainism in historical period appears intriguing. Rishabhdeo ( ऋषभदेव) is considered as an incarnation of Vishnu in Bhaagvat purana and also the first Tirthankar of Jainism. He is not considered as one of the Dashavatar of Vishnu. Buddha is considered as ninth Avatar in Dashavatar. However, though there are some temples of Varaha, Narsimha and Parashuram in addition to many for Shrirama and Krishna,  I have not seen any ancient Hindu temple of Rishabhdev or Buddha nor heard any Hindu worshipping these Avataras. 

Jainism spread all over India and is in practice.  Buddhism might have also spread across India in ancient times, as we can see Stupas in different places. However, though it spread widely to other countries, it almost vanished in India. It has been rejuvenated in the last century after Babasaheb Ambedkar embraced it along with his followers.  They have built several new temples of Buddha in recent times.

--

A M    Mar 16 at 1:12 PM

Very interesting ABG.

  Though all the three Dharma vis Hinduism, Budhism, Jainism evolved from the Indians, in India, the impact of the later two on ourselves has been vaxing and vaning. It's rather strange why and what for these two took different roots and routes. Did Mahatma Budha or Mahaveeraji find some things lacking in Hinduism, less ideological, too flexible or what else? It's also significant that Hinduism is termed as a "way of life", not as a Religion. Was that the reason?

  All said and done, I find Hinduism or more appropriately the "Sanatam Dharma" as a very practical Dharma, most flexible in nature or operations, with all kinds of God's n Godesses, Philosophies, Ideologies adoptable to all trades and work cultures, War or Peace situations, Rituals for all occasions, Places and kinds of Worships, Life situations, Psychologies et al as compared to other religions (though I am no specialist on this). Perhaps that may also be the main reason for it's survival over eons, as well as by applying the wisdoms of "survival of the fittest (flexible)" criteria. Thanks.

. . . . . . . . .  .. ********************************************************


RYA -  Apr 9 

Sri Lanka is in news for its economic hardship. I was in Sri Lanka just over a month back. I was there with my friends from 25th Feb to 11th March. We were on our Lanka travel going east – west and north – south. We essentially covered the historical sites, the forts of previous colonising powers and two national parks, Wilpattu and Yala. We visited Jaffna and Trincomalee and Point Pedro for the memories of civil war.

When we were about to leave for Sri Lanka, there were reports of fuel and food shortages and conditions deteriorating fast. When we arrived, we did not find the dire situations painted in media. Of course there were lines at the petrol pumps, but much orderly lines. We experienced only a three hours of power outage in Anuradhapura, out of 15 days stay. There were busloads of people on pilgrimage at the Buddhist stupas and temples. In fact we had to abandon our climb (a night trek to be on the top for witnessing sunrise) of Sripada (Adam’s peak), as being weekend, there were too many devotees climbing. There was no space at the top. The narrow steps for the final climb were jam packed. We returned 200 feet short of the top.

It seems the things have taken a political overturn. The economy is stumbling and people are suffering. We were lucky to escape the rallies and curfews.  

09/04/2022

--

AM -  Apr 10 

Dear RYA,

   I missed one main pointer from you, viz what factors prompted you to undertake this trip besides the pandemic lock down itch. Another friend just returned last Sunday, did not face any trouble. Very well made videos by you. I could see some more as well on YouTube in sequence with yours. 

  Srilanka is a peace loving country with deep and long standing cultural, religious even language ties with us, may be same DNA as well. And still wants to project as a different entity. Some background learnt:

Q: "Sinhalese people inhabit Sri Lanka and are the main ethnic group that make up about 74% of the total population of Sri Lanka. They are also referred to as the Hela, or Sinhala; the word Sinhala, meaning “lion people”. According to popular mythology, the Sinhalese people are descendants from the followers of Prince Vijaya who served exile (from 543-483 BC) in Sri Lanka and hailed from a North Eastern Indian kingdom called Singhapur (Modern day Singhur, West Bengal). Genetic studies have shown that the origins of the Sinhalese people lie mainly in West Bengal and South India, with links also to native 'Hela' tribes."

    UQ: Whilst the Tamilians settled here from the times of Chola dynasties. The divide between the two groups is stark in every aspect. LTTE's struggle for a separate state within Srilanka is the root cause of friction between these inhabitants as well as between us as countries 

  Srilanka's GDP/person was twice that of India in PPP or . It's half the size of Tamilnadu but 1/3rd of it's population. 

  It's present crisis is mainly on account of FE drop due to the Tourism industry flopping during the Pandemic that earlier  contributed ~30 % of its import bills, that's now down to just 3% contribution. It may need at least 12-18 months to recover. 

 Overall one gets the impression of a small well managed n maintained State, good GDP, educations, wealth distribution but limited resources. 

. . . 

"Sinhala" may comprise of the two words, Sinha+Hela, meaning the "Lion People".


--

TP - Apr 10 at 12:23 PM

Dear AM

Good to read your posting. One more reason for the present day problem is the amount of loan present government has taken and spent it lavishily on unproductive projects. Now the interest burden is also hurting them . The ban on use of fertilizers reduced the food production also. 

Yes it is true that the reduced tourists flow has given another shock to Srilanka. 

Regards,

----


RYA - Apr 10 at 2:59 PM

Dear AM,

Let me answer first why Sri Lanka. Sometime back I developed interest in exploring the Indian linkages to other nations with regards to Hinduism and Buddhism. My friends were inclined to share my interests and so we started planning our travels. First we visited Thailand and Cambodia. In Thailand we made it a point to visit Ayutthaya (the name is the morphed name of Ayodhya). This was the capital of Hindu kings of Thailand, linking their lineage to Ikshvaku and Rama. They attach Rama to their Thai names even today. There is hardly any trace of old Hindu structures as Buddhism has totally taken over the nation. The push came mainly from Buddhist Kings of Myanmar who destroyed Ayutthaya and instilled Buddhism. Even then you find the Ramayana frescoes in the Royal palace of Bangkok. Angkor Wat is a classical case of Vishnu temple being converted to Buddha temple. Khmer people relate to Indian epics. I was surprised to see the life size statues of Bhima and Duryodhana engaged in a mace battle, in the national museum. Then we journeyed to Luoyang and the White Horse temple to trace the beginning of  Buddhism in China. It was a wonderful trip. We did not miss the Myanmar connection to Buddhism. We traced the 5th century ancient Hindu temples in Penjikent in Tajikistan. At Sarazm saw the ruins of Mitra Culture, a World Heritage site. In 2019 we traveled by retracing the path of Xuanzang (Hsuan Tsang) to India. In all these travels we included many more interesting places and activities. So now you will agree travel to Sri Lanka was but a natural choice. 

You are right in tracing the origin of Sinhala. As per Mahavamsa, the chronicle of  Sinhala history, the account of origin is shrouded in supernatural births, Yaksh and Nags and curse and punishments. 

They also relate to Chandravanshi Clan, to descendants of Pandavas at Mathura etc. I may like to point out a correction to "Hela". As per our guide Hela is not a name of a tribe. It is a Sinhala word and the meaning is humans/people, like the Gond from central India identify themselves as "Koya" and its meaning is human. We have tagged them as Gond, based on their language. 

Tamils and Sri Lankan have a long history of interactions including battles. Cholas overran the city of Anuradhapura, destroying many Buddhist sites. Small kingdoms of Sri Lanka were united to end the Chola rule. They had interests in Chola and Pandian conflicts. But they have coexisted for thousands of years. Tamilians being better educated occupied many government posts along with the Burghers (Eurasian mix race equivalent to our Anglo Indians). After independence Sinhala was made the only official language including the medium of instruction in schools and colleges. This was a classic case of generating the division of We and They. Burghers left for England but Tamilians had no option of that sort. The results were predictable: the two societies drifted apart. As in any other civil conflicts outside elements also play a part. We cannot ignore the local Tamil Nadu politics taking interest in Tamil Sri Lankans. This politics of dividing society along ethnicity, race, language and religion may pay dividends in short term political gains but in long term it inflicts festering wounds on the society and nation. Sri Lanka suffered a bloody civil war which devoured thousands of innocent lives. 

I think the present situation in Sri Lanka is not the result of only the foreign exchange crunch. The resentment against the brazen long term manipulative one family rule  is coming to boil. One does not know yet, how it would end.     


10/04/2022

--



Monday, 30 March 2020

आजके माहौलपर दो रचनाएँ

१. आज के माहौल पर एक ग़ज़ल पेशे ख़िदमत है.......


बेवजह घर से निकलने की ज़रूरत क्या है |
*मौत से आंख मिलाने की ज़रूरत क्या है |*

सबको मालूम है बाहर की हवा है क़ातिल |
*यूँ ही क़ातिल से उलझने की ज़रूरत क्या है ||*

ज़िन्दगी एक नियामत, इसे सम्हाल के रख |
*क़ब्रगाहों को सजाने की ज़रूरत क्या है ||*

दिल बहलने के लिए घर मे वजह हैँ काफ़ी |
*यूँ ही गलियों मे भटकने की ज़रूरत क्या है ||*

मुस्कुराकर, आंख झुकना भी अदब होता है |
*हाथ से हाथ मिलाने की ज़रूरत क्या है ||*

श्रेयांसकुमार जैन द्वारा प्रेषित

🙏🙏

२.  हरिवंश राय जी की प्रसिद्ध पंक्तियों की प्रेरणा से आज के परिपेक्ष्य में आप सभी से निवेदन,,,,

शत्रु ये अदृश्य है
विनाश इसका लक्ष्य है
कर न भूल, तू जरा भी ना फिसल
मत निकल, मत निकल, मत निकल

हिला रखा है विश्व को
रुला रखा है विश्व को
फूंक कर बढ़ा कदम, जरा संभल
मत निकल, मत निकल, मत निकल

उठा जो एक गलत कदम
कितनों का घुटेगा दम
तेरी जरा सी भूल से, देश जाएगा दहल
मत निकल, मत निकल, मत निकल

संतुलित व्यवहार कर
बन्द तू किवाड़ कर
घर में बैठ, इतना भी तू ना मचल
मत निकल, मत निकल, मत निकल


अनुरोध कि जन चेतना हेतु जब तक यह दावानल थम न जाए, पंक्तियों को अग्रसारित करें।।।।
🌹👏🌹
किसी ने अच्छा लिखा है —
विनोद कुमार द्वारा प्रेषित

Saturday, 14 April 2018

Measuring Consciouness

All of us know a little about consciousness. To state in simple words, it is how much we instantly come to know or understand about what is happening around us. This ability starts building up from the birth of a child and is built up further as he grows and it gradually diminishes with ageing, but it also gets temporarily diminished in different degrees due to sleep, anesthesia, shock, injury, sickness, alcohol, drugs etc., even due to over-sized ego, ignorance or excessive concentration. People live in different states of consciousness from fully conscious to semi-conscious or unconscious. It is essentially integration of information with in the brain.

However, these states are qualitative and subjective.  A post informing about some research being done on quantification and measurement of consciousness initiated a very stimulated discussion about consciousness taking it beyond the realm of medical science into the ionosphere of vedanta philosophy and back to the earth, encompassing wider areas such as knowledge, Gyan (ज्ञान), Vidya (विद्या),  Soul (आत्मा) etc. While value addition diminished  progressively, personal duels initiated by the debate continued even after somebody suggested a full stop. So I had to use the scissors of my judgement to chop of some portions and pick up the relevant and/ or interesting contents. Going through the chain of mails for this purpose again was quite interesting. Though a large number of comments were made, there was hardly any reference to the research work except in one or two. Perhaps very few friends might have taken the pains of opening the link to find out what it was about and in a way it defeated the purpose of the original mail. Still it was worth collecting these mails in a post to my blog.


The dictionary meaning of the word 'Consciousness' is as follows. This is to start from ground level.

"1. the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.
synonyms: awareness, wakefulness, alertness, responsiveness, sentience
2. a person's awareness or perception of something.
synonyms: awareness of, knowledge of the existence of, alertness to, sensitivity to, realization of, cognizance of, mindfulness of, perception of, apprehension of, recognition of."

Bringing Chit (चित् ) in the discussion (in place of consciousness), without specifically naming it, perhaps resulted in its getting so prolonged. It was still absorbing to read anyway. 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AM , Apr 10 at 5:47 AM

   Sleeping-Awake-Unconscious-Coma etc are various states of Consciousness of our brains. Here is a theory to define it scientifically and also how to measure it. I found it interesting and hence share. What I could not find is, as to how it differs, or not, from the concept of Wisdom. A rather long one but still informative for those interested in AI n concepts of our Brains. A sample paragraph:
   "The great strength of IIT (integrated information theory) is that it’s mostly consistent with common sense, in contrast to competing theories, which often propose deeply weird solutions (such as denying that we are conscious at all). IIT explains why an assault to the cerebellum, which encodes motor events, causes ataxia, slurred speech, or a stumbling walk but results in no diminishment of consciousness. That’s because the cerebellum, unlike the neocortex, doesn’t integrate internal states, even though it is home to 69 of the 86 billion nerve cells in the human body. IIT tells us that human beings in deep sleep or under general anesthesia aren’t conscious, because information integration has broken down. And IIT is consistent with how life feels: Consciousness is graded over a lifetime, blooming in an adult but withering with age, drugs, or alcohol, when our capacity to integrate information falters.

    But the theory has its surprises too. Because IIT proposes that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe and that any system that integrates information is to some degree sentient, it follows that things that we do not think of as conscious at all, such as a light diode or the clock in a computer, will possess non-zero phi values, like temperatures just above absolute zero. This seems wrong, but Tononi promises that an upcoming paper will show that computers that are feed-forward systems, even artificial intelligences that employ deep learning, would not be conscious. “The phi of a digital computer would be zero, even if it were talking like me,” Tononi says. To make a conscious AI, Christof Koch speculates, would require a different computer architecture with feedback mechanisms that promote information integration, such as a neuromorphic computer."

https://www.wired.com/story/tricky-business-of-measuring-consciousness/
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RR- Apr 10 at 3:21 PM

It is interesting topic, yet measuring Consciousness sounds more like measuring infinity. Anything that can be measured, or metered, is called Maya, but it is not Consciousness. The latter can only be experienced thru personal meditation, devotion, right action, or right knowledge. Once experienced, you stop expressing it in terms of measuring, or quantifying it.

How can Love, Bliss, Anand, Pure Joy be measured? Some in India have called it गूँगे का गुड. Yet the friends, family, the world knows if you are experiencing it. It cannot be hidden. I would read BG, to understand what is SQ- Spiritual Quotient?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
ABG - Apr 10 at 5:51 PM

I may sound striking a discordant note, but as I have understood science, there is a basic contradiction in its approach to acquisition of knowledge as compared to that of most of the religions, more prominently Hinduism.

The preachers of these religions state that knowledge is infinite and you will never understand anything about it. So better ask them and believe them.
Scientists also know that the knowledge is infinite, but they try to acquire it bit by bit by their own efforts and put it to use in making life a little better.

I could not understand anything about measurement of consciousness from the paragraph quoted by Ashok and it did not inspire me to read the full article. However, it will be a great improvement if they can invent a better equipment than a breath analyzer. I wish we can test it on other intoxicating agents such effects of speeches given by Babas and Netas.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RR - Apr 10 at 6:33 PM

ABG  wrote it nicely "the way he understood it". Contradictions are expected, due to the infinite variety of knowledge, the natural attitudes of people and their longings. Yet I would differ, "that you will never understand anything about it”.
Firstly, understanding of this inner wisdom or Gyan is not the same as acquiring mundane school knowledge.
Secondly, one does not attach similar seriousness, similar commitment.
The beyond-mundane -Vidya would not have survived if it was irrelevant or un-understandable. More and more school kids in America are getting roped in from early years, as essential part of curriculum to stop them from drop-out, drugs, crime, wastage and absenteeism. Surprisingly, schools are interested in meditation just 20 minutes a day due to the economic benefits in the short term of billions of dollars each year. This is real science; Hell with the religion- is the new chant.

Friends, I do med myself, more and more and would urge more friends to do too. Enough of arguing. The spirit soul is starving for Faith, Hope and the Action.
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PDS - Apr 10 at 6:57 PM

I think wonderful discussion on 'Measuring Consciousness' leading to understanding that knowledge is infinite; do meditation; IIT etc etc.. Most of it went flying. In my humble opinion let us keep life simple. Let us not complicate life. Less we understand better for all. Lead a simple and happy life. People who have acquired deep Knowledge say 'Ignorance Is Bliss'. Measuring any aspect of consciousness is in the realm of experts. I salute to them.
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RA - Apr 10 at 11:29 PM

I agree with ABG. It is the spirit of inquiry and the desire to make the unknown understandable is important. When we accumulate knowledge over generations we try to tag some (now) common knowledge as mundane and some at higher level knowledge or wisdom or Gyan. We forget that what is termed today as mundane was once cutting edge wisdom.

The American kids getting engaged to meditation for some gains (worldly gains?) has no relation to what you are saying.
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K.N - Apr 11 at 12:37 AM

The complex  materialistic analysis of the functioning of the brain through the divisions we make of cerebrum, cerebellum and medulla oblong  gata,  conceived as a central computer controlling the millions of cells, giga bytes we may call them, is quite different from the abstract conception of knowledge and wisdom, as I understand.
I do not know whether there can be any connection between these materialistic and abstract aspects, except that the later is some inexplicable product of the farmer.

I guess AM is after the first.
I guess ABG is referring to the unraveling of knowledge for our material comfort., usually attributed to Science.
It is again doubtful whether this materialistic attributes have any relation to the abstract attributes like happiness, contentment, peace of mind.
Maybe this abstract aspect is referred to as wisdom,  professed to be guided by religion.
In spirit, yes, but in course of time degenerated by dogmas, outcome being exactly the opposite of the objective., leading to the conclusion of ABG.

But the blossoming of wisdom is from PDS, ‘why worry’.

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ABG - Apr 11 at 9:12 AM

The title "Measuring consciousness" made me think that it is a scientific effort. I only expanded it to acquisition of "knowledge", the purpose of Science. I have taken meaning of word "knowledge" as it is in English language.
RR wrote about infinity of ज्ञान, (Gyan) supposed to defy every attempt of containing within any boundaries, supposed to be obtained by a few great souls chosen by the Almighty.
I still think the article is about Science, some may downgrade it as 'materialistic' if they like it.
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AM - Apr 11 at 9:50 AM

   What a wonderful experience sharing a thought process is. I would have remained like a frog if all the connotations of Conciousness per se as brought out by ABG/KN/RR/PDS/RA were not correct to varying extent. I fully agree that Conciousness has infinte dimensions/no upper limit, limited only by the concepts, imagination n capability of the thinker. That's what the Lord showed to Arjuna as a "Virat Roop" or our sages who attained "Divya Darshana" .
  Whilst there is no higher limit, but I think there is a lower limit below which the mind shuns Conciousness. It may be something akin to the sudden lighting of a tube light. The medicine men are after that stage to understand Coma, Sleep, Subconscious etc. We all know the affliction of Stephen Hawking , fully Concious but fully incapacitated and many other cases of fully capacitated but unconcious. I think that was what the article was all about.
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K.N - Apr 11 at 10:32 AM

I believe  Science is generally about materialistic things, some hypothesis to explain some things or phenomena being called as theories, bordering on philosophy.
Philosophy, I believe, is about non-materialistic things, abstract or metaphysics being used for want of a better term. Science and the real sense of religion are supposed to meet these two aspects, with no downgrading  or upgrading involved.

Since the topic has not yet died, I may advance some more drivel!

The wonderful power plant of nature, that of the human brain, is governed by two layers.
The control function, based on information collected and transmitted by numerous sensory cells, a conscious action of processing and issuing commands, is that of ‘the brain’., falling under  ‘voluntary action’
The second layer,  falls under ‘involuntary action’,  is governed by  spinal cord,  connected  to and forming an important part of, the central brain, but yet in a different location.
When the brain ‘sleeps’, an unconscious state,  this layer takes over essential control, with involuntary action., as  in the quick and involuntary pulling up of the hand or leg when the mosquito bites a sleeping person., bypassing the brain action.
A subject which very much fascinated me in my school days, with half baked impression still left..

One  micro part of the brain, called neurons, are endowed with ‘radiating properties’, as per present day discovery.  meaning transmission without physical connection, explaining the mystery of ‘action at a distance’,  of mind power.

Like the unopened Tiruvanandapuram  temple dens,  Nature may still hold  quite a lot of unsuspected treasures!

Hope the flow continues from brain, on brain,  in the science or abstract plains!

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GRS - Apr 11 at 11:17 AM

  Very interesting reading. KN’s  posting brings out the hard fact, which I was not “conscious”. Even reactor was first “built” by nature at Gabon Africa, where it operated with a high capacity factor for thousands of years. I now see that  two independent control systems already existed in humans ( and animals?). Also there is no sharing between these two human system until Final Acting Elements. May be there are other areas in nature  which can yield “gyan” to designers.

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pd  - Apr 11 at 12:41 PM

Everybody   is   talking   about  what   conciousness  is  and   what   it   is   not.  But  I  want   to   know   why  it   is   so.  Any  answers?

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RA - Apr 11 at 12:45 PM

There is no denying that the true wisdom / supreme consciousness /  Virat Roop / Divya Darshan, call it by any name, is boundless. Human ignorance may be an ocean but still bounded. All human efforts (and ours in this group too) are to shrink the borders of the ocean of ignorance, kind of reclaiming knowledge form the ignorance. Does it make any difference to the boundless knowledge / consciousness? No. BUT it make a huge difference to our vision  / to our understanding of the true nature of the universe. We peel of one more layer of unfounded fear / unreasonable dogma / romanticized falsehood.

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AG - Apr 11 at 3:39 PM

Literally , in medical parlance {scientifically}, the " Measurement of Consciousness " is done by EEG.

The way , cardiac activities are seen on ECG monitors and very regular patterns with  up/down & in between straight , indicates normal functioning of heart pump.

Similarly, Regular pulse patterns  on EEG is supposed to show normal electrical activities ( level of consciousness) on different points on  brain.
Whether a person is in sleep, wakeful state  , inebriated, coma etc.every minute details can be monitored on EEG screen.

When all lines fall flat, - no consciousness - known as "Brain Dead".
Semi/Un/ Consciousness ,- all are in the domain of time, space & causation {earthly existence), but the next higher up  "Super Consciousness" seems to be altogether different ball & game , very very rare personalities only may reach there.
But almost all present day Babas/Gurus try to kick the ball through that  window of opportunity
To run their show/business.

-  Just  some random thoughts, nothing more .
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K.N - Apr 11 at 7:00 PM

I treat this group as a sort of technical and philosophical journal, an assembly of fairly intelligent people, hard to get anywhere  and love to do loud thinking with.

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RV - Apr 11 at 7:18 PM

Consciousness is perhaps measurable only so long as it occupies and manifests in the equipment it has chosen.
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RR - Apr 12 at 4:43 AM

PDS's message is amusing indeed, like the outdated Charvak philosophy.
I had a neighbour in the college hostel in Delhi Engineering college in 1955. His grandma showed up suddenly from Gwalior to personally check the welfare of her ‘baby boy’ who had never been away out of Gwalior home. I remember, we were returning from the smithy shop practice. Grandma looked at the ‘baby’s’ tender hands full of blisters. She fired the workshop superintendent for his cruelty and would you believe she took the student away- just to keep her baby’s life simple? The precious seat remained vacant the rest of the year.

Everyone has a message to deliver, based on his or her personal experiences.
While Life must be simplified, that is what engineering and technology all about. Yet In our craze for simplicity, we cannot afford to be simplistic or simpletons.

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RR - Apr 12 at 6:04 AM

ABG made interesting observation on Gyan, as applicable in modern India..
It is true only a few can attain the end goal, but everyone is entitled to make the attempt. The quality can come only out of the quantity.
Remember the famous Bell Curve in Statistics course. The image below is taken from Google.

The curve shows the following interpretation in respect of Knowledge-
Some are ignorant/confused (the left side trail)
Some are knowledgeable (the right side trail)
Majority are in between, or struggling(the central hump).
Progress or process improvement means the curve is gradually skewed to the right, as more and more members in the control group are participating.

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AM - Apr 12 at 6:55 AM

    Appears, there is some ∆ room left to push in a few more thoughts.
   The heading itself appears to be misleading, for, to measure any thing, lends itself to a 'physical quantity'. It might better have been "Menifesting Conciousness" or a similar one.
  There are many non physical quantities, even in Science, that are only menifested in theory, but not (as yet) physically experienced or measured e.g the black holes, the dark matter, the great subatomic forces, even the gravity waves till a few years back, quantum mechanics etc and I am not counting the omnipresent biological ones, like the greatest of all mystries "what's Life, the Concept of God, what's the purpose of this Creation etc etc?".
    So,... it's a 'trap' to muddy the waters when we push this item towards a .... "physical quantity" or 'how it matters' like thoughts .
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AG - Apr 12 at 9:36 AM

Don't know : Right or wrong.
It appears, the more appropriate word would have been :
"CONSCIENCE /CONSCIENTIOUSNESS", - which, not being a physical parameter, cannot be visualised by any method or instrumental at all.

- Just an attempt, nothing more.
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BM - Apr 12 at 11:08 AM

Consciousness is a qualitative term. It is possible to experience it,  but not possible to measure it.

As RR Compares  Consciousness with infinity (equivalent to the Level of GOD CONSCIOUSNESS :- say 7th Level ) महात्मा बुद्ध,  गुरू  नानकदेव जी lived life on the 7th level of consciousness.

All saint's also  lives life on the higher level of consciousness than other peoples.

In my opinion all great scientists also lives life on higher level of consciousness than ordinary peoples. Because God selected that body of scientists for new creation eg scientists  'Arya Bhatt,   Edison etc etc.

We all are born as Human beings, it is possible for us to improve our qualities.
If we are able to increase our qualities in the same ratio our consciousness will be increased.

So being  human  it is very much in our hand to  increase our level of consciousness and established in Samadhi (समाधि)
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AM - Apr 12 at 12:55 PM

    Appears, there is some ∆ room left to push in a few more thoughts.
   The heading itself appears to be misleading, for, to measure any thing, lends itself to a 'physical quantity'. It might better have been "Menifesting Conciousness" or a similar one.
  There are many non physical quantities, even in Science, that are only menifested in theory, but not (as yet) physically experienced or measured e.g the black holes, the dark matter, the great subatomic forces, even the gravity waves till a few years back, quantam mechanics etc and I am not counting the omnipresent biological ones, like the greatest of all mystries "what's Life, the Concept of God, what's the purpose of this Creation etc etc?".
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AKS - Apr 12 at 1:28 PM

I think conscious and consciousness are two different thing.
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RA - Apr 12 at 5:48 PM

It seems we are wandering all over the field of consciousness. Starting with trying to measure the consciousness, to discouraging measurement of an infinite, to encourage only its experience, to distinguishing its measurable / gradable aspect, to recognising  superlative grades of "C" (randomly at 7) granted by the divine grace  to the accepted great achievers. The reason is the subject is truly fascinating, complex and hence challenging.

AM gives a list of nonphysical entities which so far are intractable / discernible including "C", one among them is "What is Life".It reminds me of the lecture series delivered at Dublin University, about 75 years back by the famous physicist Erwin Schrodinger, yes the same with the famous cat. With care he has avoided the singularity of origin of life and the backlash of the mighty church. In four lectures he painted the complexity of biological systems in a way which was fascinating to the students of other branches of science. That really opened the flood gates of interdisciplinary research. Not only the understanding of biological functions and processes made a quantum jump, it enriched the other branches of science. AND STILL WHAT IS LIFE IS INTRACTABLE.

In short there is no reason to give up a hard problem as understanding or measuring "C" , there could be other side benefits spinning out of it. I think our group understands this instinctively and is carrying on every which way.

One more thing. Does our group has "C"? Because as per the article referred  by AM

" Other things that have zero phi (no "C"), according to Tononi, include collectives of sentient individuals, such as corporations or the United States"

We often  talk of collective "C" of the society or nation etc is that of a non existent thing? Or is it the part of the same complexity and intractability of big "C"?

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RR - Apr 12 at 8:29 PM
Worrying is not the correct verb.  Nothing substantial is ever achieved by worrying, nor by ignoring or burying the head in sand.
The correct verb may well be to understand for yourself intellectually through self-study, and/or friendly help and face the issue responsibly and courageously. Finally eat the Prasadam, to experience the grace and bliss.
Realising Consciousness is whole nine yards of spiritual technology. Once you pick up the baton on the field, you must run the full length. No short cut, no dropping out.

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AM - Apr 12 at 9:45 PM

Reading RA's thought provoking  questions in his last paragraphs, some out of the box thought occured to me.
    Is the "Concept of Conciousness" some how representative of the "Concept of the Universe"??
     Both seem to be full of comlexities, diversities, surprises, unlimited in dimensions, ever expanding etc....
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K.N - Apr 14 at 11:46 AM

Just some stray thoughts to keep the light, humorous, responsibly responsive,  flow of mails in our group!
 Co ordinates are relative and the same remark may have different connotations from different coordinates.
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RR - Apr 14 at 2:43 PM

An interesting conclusion.
-There are Different interpretations of the word Consciousness.
- Yet it is simple to argue that for anything to make sense, must be measurable.

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K.N

On rereading, I still feel that we are dealing with two very different things. The author of the article ‘link’ed by AM also is not clear in his perception. On a purely scientific topic ( in the medical  field) about declaring the state of a patient( or a normal being) in the scale of consciousness and unconscious state, (as in a patient  being medically shifted from a conscious to an unconscious state as part of a medical procedure),  the confusion was introduced by bringing in scientifically unconnected topic of Wisdom and Knowledge. One may note that this was done only in the first/second para and does not figure in further development of the scientific quantification of the unconscious state, medically.
 Our wise members also caught this parenthetical reference , opening up discussion on this non-medical, abstract topic ., and tried to connect the topic of measurement  to the impossible, infinite, abstract  Wisdom and Knowledge, not the topic dealt with in the article.

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AkS - Apr 14 at 8:20 PM

Topic can become even more interesting if the conscious can be defined or elaborated. Voice if conscious is very often used statement for achieving multiple objectives.

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RR - Apr 14 at 9:27 PM

Came across some witty and wise tales….
1. One passenger to another, "I always carry two books on flights. This is the book #1, I am going to read, and book#2, in case book#1 is terrible".
Lesson: One cannot avoid the terrible ones, or scams, or cheating or stealing, or lying that is going on. Read only, or spyware may be a solution. Mindful Choice making, and Self-care is another, or the better way.

2. Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on teaching at Stanford, “ It is not my job to make you comfortable. Actually, it is my job to make you uncomfortable”
Lesson: Pain is the unavoidable price of freedom, Freedom from pain can come from spiritual growth and deep personal transformation. Each person has his/her own recipe. No need to argue, or to block the outside by living in a glass box.
We have only two hands. Learn to Use these to win over your own inner chatterbox (चित्त वृत्ति), not to fight the crowd-at-large outside. Hats off to Ms. Rice.

3. Fred: What’d you get your wife for Christmas?
    Ned: She told me,” Nothing would make me happier than a diamond necklace.
    Fred: So you got her diamonds.
    Ned: No, I got her Nothing.
Lesson: The IAS type answer generally wins in materialistic life. One must, however be careful in applying the same lesson to non-materialistic issues.

4. The timeless message- Be Simple and Stay positive... Thanks to PDS

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pd - Apr 14 at 9:34 PM

To  whoever  can   help
KINDLY  give   definition  (in  1/2/3  lines  )  of
1)   Consciousness
2)   Atma
-The   jigyaasu
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RR - Apr 15 at 7:32 AM

According to Indian Vedanta philosophy,
1. Brahman(ब्रह्म) is the absolute non-dual Supreme Reality, aka the cosmic Self, or pure Consciousness.
2. Atman (आत्मन) is the individual Self, aka the pure Self is eternal/immortal and its essential nature is 3-fold: existence(सत्), consciousness(चित्) and bliss(आनंद).
IOW, Consciousness or Knowledge of the Self leads to Bliss (सच्चिदानंद).
Attaining Bliss, through Self-realisation is the true goal of human life.
3. There is a perfect identity between the individual Self and the cosmic Brahman. The difference or duality between the two is simply illusion.

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AM - Apr 15 at 7:57 AM

All this Vedanta philosophy about "Aatma", Brahma and "Parmatma", is it just just a nomenclature or a definition or an explanation about an otherwise unknown entitity? Does it have some origin or ending or a foundation or a menifestation, either in the physical or in a natural format? We know it is eons old and is our heritage but since then our knowledge about nature and universe has grown manifold. And I am sure even it's writers did not proclaim it as absolute wisdom n or truth that it can't be updated or challenged.
   As, without any such basic links now, it tentamounts to an "Alice in Wonderland" like scenario for the uninitiated. Sorry for the rebuttal but this may be the feeling of all of us except the proponents. 
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K.N - Apr 15 at 8:57 PM

For the complex topics of Brahman, atma, karma and tbe like, a devouted scholar would go for textual treatments, or the gigabytes of internet not to this group.
That is why Forwards and Links for the same referred to in this group, piously, seemed to.me to be a bit odd.
Viewed from a different angle , possibly with a new glossary, possibly with some different interpretations, possibly with awe from a historical perspective, may be different., and has been tried in our group.
But, converting this into a dogmatic Veda class is a bit difficult to take., as expressed typically by AM 
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MP- Apr 15 at 9:07 PM

Too much it is, I thought KN appoint a committee for R&D and come out  with a physical instrument as spirituality  gives different perspectives - 

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RR -Apr 16 at 9:19 AM

AM's inputs and comments are appreciated. I am glad you are asking valid questions to ascertain their use in the 21st century.
Apart from short definitions in 3 lines, requested by pd, the following explanation may help in further understanding the relationship between Atman, Brahman and Consciousness
1. Mind-Body-Breathing problem
A material scientist, particularly trained in the Western country (India may also be heading in that direction), generally takes a solid, liquid or gaseous object, analyses it physically and chemically, to manipulate matter and the measurement. That is enough to establish the material existence. A human being is, however not primarily physical. The research is further complicated when mind and breathing enter into the picture. I have met a fellow scientist, saying “Either you are breathing, or not breathing. If you are breathing then everything is alright. If you are not breathing then obviously you are dying. It is that simple, isn’t it?” A yoga teacher trained in India or in the East would however, say it is a foolishly naive approach.
2. Science of Pranayama
At the Institute of Yoga in Santacruz east Mumbai, the library has several treatise books on Breathing which were written centuries ago. In India, breathing has always been an extraordinary science. The Sanskrit word for breathing is Pranayam, consisting of three sub-words:  Pra(first unit) + na(energy)+ ayama (manifestation, expansion and contraction). 
In order to understand the Cosmic aspect of God, the student is first trained to balance his breathing, calm his nerves and control his mind. Control of mind is a pre-requisite to the ultimate subjugation of the cosmic merging of individual soul Aatman  with the cosmic soul Brahman.

3. The current research in the West is surely seized with the benefits of this Upanishadic wisdom, and they are trying to prove it in their labs. They are awed how this was once discovered by Rishis of India, without modern labs, which is truly mind-boggling. It is predictable that Nobel prizes of the near future will be in the realm of Consciousness.

4. Conclusion: My personal view point is this: West was kept bereft of this super science of Consciousness during 200 years or more of British rule. The schools and Universities in America will take time, but sincere efforts are going on. This is a good news. 
The bad news is- It is not a simple matter. Believe it or not! 
Are the schools and colleges in India similarly equipped? Swami Vivekananda had remarked more than a hundred years ago, 'renaissance of Yogic science will take place in America’. Are the retired scientists leaving such legacy for the new generation, beside the wealth, home or will.

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The last word is not yet written!